Are arrows really enough for deer?

[Glock19Fan]

I have always wondered about this. I purchased a used bow about a month an a half ago, and was thinking about getting some broadheads and possibly hunting with it, but is it really enough for deer? I know that placement is the most important factory of all, but do they really have the penetration needed, especially through heavy bone, to penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital organs? I shot a 2x4 with a broadhead several weeks ago, and was suprised when a .22 CB short penetrated deeper than the arrow. I know penetration in soft tissue and hard materials differ, but I dont have much experience with bow and arrows and would like to know what the general performance they give on deer (full penetration, ect).

Also, my accuracy isnt that great. I have peep sites, after shooting a few arrows to the high right of the target (im a left handed shooter), we moved the front site to the right and my arrows went even further to the right. Maybe it is my technique, but I was wondering what everyone else had to say about it.

Also, does anyone else have any tips on shooting?

Thanks!

 

[Polishrifleman]

I have no experience on the subject other than TV and just the other night I was pleasantly astonished to see close to a through and through on a whitetail by bow although no bone was hit (travelled through the ribs cleanly). I had no idea that there was that much velocity.

 

[PCGS65]

Compound bows are fine for deer. But not for heavy bone. The rib cage yes shoulder no. I would recomend min.60lb draw or more if your strong. They say 40 -50 is good for deer but thats a minimum. Draw length is critical among other things. If your draw length is off you will never be able to shoot straight no matter what you do. You are asking for a ton of information here. So try this website http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm it will seem like too much effort but it really isn't. If you have a good sporting goods store close such as gander mountain. They will be of big help. But read as much about bows first because many people at these specialty stores don't know ship. The gander mountain by me has 3 people working the archery section and only one really knows his stuff and that's who I go see. I bought a bow in july and in one month I could write my name with it at 20 yards and hit 6" bulls 3 of 5 at 30 yards. I did a ton of reading first and Nick at gander was a BIG help. Good luck and don't give up!

 

[HSMITH]

My current hunting bow throws a 460 grain arrow at 277 fps. I shot a whitetail deer at long range (dead calm wind, known range, former tournament 3d archery tournament winner) and got over 35 inches of penetration with the last inch being very heavy bone using an expandable broadhead. I hit the last rib on the entrance side dead center, ventilated the liver, clipped the heart, and ventilated the exit side lung with the broadhead burried in the exit side leg bone. My 30-06 won't go any deeper with 180 grain bullets. I 'missed' and hit a whitetail deer in the on-side shoulder blade, the arrow blew completely through the deer and buried in the dirt at 23 yards.

Arrow penetration is a combination of two factors, kinetic energy and quality of flight. If the arrow has sufficient energy and stable flight they will go deeper than you can even imagine. Quality of flight is MUCH more important than energy, it doesn't matter how much energy the arrow has if it doesn't hit straight on. You HAVE TO HAVE the entire mass of the arrow focused perfectly on the point of the broadhead. When you have that even a 50 pound draw weight bow with reasonable arrow weight will blow completely through a whitetail on a broadside shot.

Bow tuning is very important, and needs to be right before you head out after a game animal.

 

[Byron Quick]

A very big brown bear was taken with bow and arrow in Alaska a few years ago. I believe it was in the top ten ever taken. The archer took his shot with the bear facing hiim. The arrow struck to the left of the bear's front shouder, traveled throught the thoracic cavity, throught the abdominal cavity, and lodged in the innards of the bear's right hip.

No, it won't go throught heavy bone. Don't hit heavy bone. Accuracy isn't that good? Practice until it is. Find an experienced bow hunter. Learn from him.

 

[Kingcreek]

I've been arrowing deer for 25 years and most times the arrow passes thru and sticks well into the dirt. I never shoot for bone but have blown thru shoulder bone. spine shots often stop the arrow but always with sufficient damage. I once shot a fat yearling straight-on into the briskit and the broadhead was peaking out under the tail- almost 4 feet of penetration.
Archery ain't easy to figure out on your own- get some help from somebody that knows what they are doing.

 

[PCGS65]

Here's some good info on bow tuning. http://www.bowhuntingmag.com/tactics/tune_0112/

 

[Lennyjoe]

Archery is more than just buying a bow and arrows and going shooting.

Most folks don't understand that a properly set up bow and arrow combo is a must when shooting archery.

Download the zip file from Easton Archery and read all about it. http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/pdfs/tuning_guide.zip

If the bow isn't set up right the arrows with field points will hit differently than broadheads.

That's why its inparative that you shoot the broadheads you intend to hunt with before the season starts.

 

[GunGoBoom]

and the broadheads need to be balanced properly, which can be checked by putting them in a spinning device, looking for wobbles, and then bending the blades a little here and there. If (a) the bow is tuned, and (b) the broadheads are balanced, and (c) the broadheads are of the same weight as your field points, then they will hit true to the point of aim of your field points - no need for the mechanical broadheads nonsense. Still not a bad idea to check them and see where you're hitting, which is why I have a small broadhead target.

But you betcha. As long as you don't hit a large bone, very sharp broadheads are extremely deadly from a 40/50# or more bow. I'd definitely rather be shot with a .44 magnum than with a 4 blade broadhead from a 60# bow, if I had to choose. There's so much cutting surface that you would (and game does) die from bleeding out very quickly.

But as pointed out, you must hit behind the shoulder, not on it, unlike with a rifle, so as not to hit thick bone.

 

[Mornard]

you...you are aware that millions of deer have been killed with arrows, aren't you? aren't you???

 

[Cindog]

I have always wondered about this. I purchased a used bow about a month an a half ago, and was thinking about getting some broadheads and possibly hunting with it, but is it really enough for deer?

They are in my state. In 2003, Pennsylvania archers killed 65,100 deer (two of which were mine ).

As for shooting techniques, I would first head to your local pro shop and ensure that your used bow fits you properly, is tuned so that it is shooting at its peak performance level, and is safe to shoot. While you are there, ask your pro to watch you shoot a few arrows and then see if he can recommend a local archery club. Beyond that, it is practice, practice, and more practice. Welcome to the club, archery is very addictive.

 

[Harve Curry]

Shoot in all positions you'd find yourself in when hunting, not just standing.

When hunting, leaves and branches big and small can be between you and the animal. A branch close to the deer may not matter, but a twig several feet from the deer will matter and can make the difference between a wounded animal or missed shot. You have to train yourself to look and see these things when you are aiming before you release the arrow.

Note: Except for deer, expanding broadheads are not to sucessfull on elk, and most outfitters I know won't let you use them for big game like elk.

 

[Camp David]

I purchased a used bow about a month an a half ago, and was thinking about getting some broadheads and possibly hunting with it, but is it really enough for deer?

In a word: yes if accurately placed!

You should do a little research on a guy by the name of Fred Bear, who used his regular recurve bow (not compound) and regular cedar broadhead arrows to down most American and select world big game. Many of these were Boone & Crockett record trophies...

I have a Bear 55lb recurve bow and normal cedar arrows with old-time broadhead tips that has downed a few deer with no problem... I never used a compound!

Technology has ushed in the compound bow which speeds arrow flight and more sophisticated arrows (aluminium) with enhanced broadhead tips.

The most important element in archery is practice so that your shots are on target, delivered to a vital organ.

 

[birddog]

I have to politely and vehemently disagree with PCGS65. The idea shot on deer (and bear, who have heavier shoulder bones), IS behind the shoulder. Twice I've shot through the vitals (slightly quartering toward me, which others will tell you is not an ideal shot) and exited through the shoulder blade on mature whitetails. On another occasion, I deflected, hit too far forward and blasted through both shoulder blades. The deer went only 20 yards. And, finally, on a large doe, I purposefully shot her through the shoulder (knowing what my bow is capable of) when I had only a small window of opportunity. 40 yards and she piled up.

While broadheads are made to kill through hemhorage, when shot from a modern bow, they are quite capable of punching through bone. Killed my first bear with a bow last year, and I've taken about 20 deer now over the last 18 years. Archery equipment is excellent killing equipment.

All that said, I don't think that's many new bowhunters' problem. The REAL limitation of archery gear is RANGE, not lethality. If you limit yourself to 30 yard shots (25 for me), you'll become a good bowhunter, and will be amazed at what you can do if you are completely familiar and confident with your equipment. If you aren't confident, don't practice, and aren't commited, bow hunting isn't for you.

 

[redneck]

I'm just getting started with archery and I'd have to say so far that equipment (to a reasonable extent) is the most important thing.

Now before anyone jumps on me about skill and all that, let me say that practice is part of what makes your equipment. A bow is a very sensitive peice of equipment, you have to have everything fit right. Then the arrows have to be matched, which includes not only the proper shaft with the right spine, but also the right point on it. All of this equipment tuning is done through practice and is the only way to insure that your equipment is going to work to its full potential.
Its not like a rifle where you can give it to an experienced shooter and they can take a few shots and see about how it hits and go make a shot, and then give a rifle to someone with poor skill and they will miss no matter what. A poorly tuned bow with poorly matched arrows is going to shoot poorly for anyone.
And you can't just borrow your buddies bow and go shoot. Doesn't work that way, its a very personalized peice of equipment.
Getting it set up right though gives it some amazing potential, and it really isn't that hard to learn when you have someone there to make adjustments and give you a few pointers. I went from not knowing a thing about archery to being able to consistently hit a 3" sqaure from 25 yards, with an entry level bow, with a simple peep sight on it in just a couple hours shooting. The equipment fits me, the arrows fit the bow, and it all comes together really quick after that.
Now I'm not saying I could go shoot a recurve, instinctive, and hit the broad side of a barn. But with a modern compound bow, peep sights, and a mechanical release its really not that difficult of a game once you're set up.

And penetration is definitely good. I've got my draw turned down to around 65# right now. Don't know what weight my arrows are (not that heavy though), but they're a full 32 inches due to my having a 31" draw, and have 75 gr heads on them. Not paying attention one day because someone started talking to me as I was about to shoot, I held the wrong pin on my target and shot over the top of it. The arrow hit the barn wall about 40 yards away and completely penetrated a peice of 1/2" plywood, and probably would have kept going if it hadn't been for the 2X6 it hit 6" later. It was all I could do to pull the dang thing out, definitely hit with some force!

 

[dakotasin]

yes, bow and arrow is more than adequate.
i shoot a 76# bow w/ 125 muzzys and have zero problem blasting thru shoulder bone, and if i take my usual behind-the-shoulder shot, i get complete pass throughs.

arrows kill differently than bullets do... it all boils down to a disruption of vital function, but, very generally, arrows kill thru hemorage (i can't for the life of me spell that word today). which is where the misconception that arrows are marginal for big game. an arrow doesn't pack anywhere near the poundage of energy as a bullet does, but because the different way it kills, it doesn't need to. and now you know why your broadheads need to be at least as sharp as a razor blade... arteries and veins are rubbery, and if the arrow isn't sharp, it will actually push instead of cut...

so, sharp broadheads, and 45 pound draw weight at a minimum. also, because of your question, i strongly urge you to take a bow hunting class. you will gain a ton of insight thru the class, and some necessary tracking skills. shot placement w/ a bow is more critical than a rifle, and there are angles that are downright no-no's w/ a bow that you wouldn't hesitate on w/ a rifle.

 

[RyanM]

Okay, so arrows kill by making an animal bleed out, while bullets kill by... magic? That sure clears that up.

The correct answer is that both bullets and arrows kill by blood loss. With bullets, the temporary cavity will sometimes whack into the spine hard enough to cause instant unconsciousness (like a rabbit punch, basically), but the animal actually dies from blood loss afterwards. Unless you hit it in the head, anyway.

There was one guy (did I read about it here?) that lost a deer that had been "killed" by a single pellet of buckshot. He put off field dressing the deer, and a few hours later, it sprang back to life and ran away. Turns out the pellet had hit the spine and knocked Mr. Deer unconscious for awhile. It didn't actually kill the deer, because the pellet didn't hit any major organs, and so didn't cause any hemmorhaging.

Penetration is a factor of sectional density and velocity, not energy. Doubling velocity will quadruple the energy and double the momentum, but will usually result in less that double penetration depth. Doubling sectional density, on the other hand, will result in twice the penetration depth for a given velocity and projectile shape. Think about it this way; if you throw a balloon gently, then throw it again twice as hard, will the balloon go twice as far? No, more like 1.5 times as far. You can actually try it, if you have to. Bullets penetrate by the same mechanism; momentum impeded by fluid drag. The higher the velocity, the higher the drag, and so the faster the bullet/balloon slows down. This means that there are diminishing returns in penetration, beyond a certain velocity.

Arrow shafts are what, 1/4" thick? The blades of the broadhead are fairly thin and don't add much drag, so you've basically got a 400 grain+ .25 caliber projectile. The previously mentioned 460 grain arrow would have a sectional density of 1.051. A 180 gr .308" bullet only has a sectional density of 0.271. If that .308 bullet expands to a perfect double-diameter mushroom and retains 100% of its weight, the sectional density of the expanded bullet will be only 0.0678. Since arrows don't expand, that arrow will penetrate almost 15.5 times as far as a .30 caliber rifle, for a given velocity.

 

[Harve Curry]

Arrows kill by the razor edge broadheads cutting vital organs on entry. If the arrow stays in the critter then it continues to cut when the animal moves, sometimes the arrow shaft will break in half inside causing more damage. Fun stuff.
No immediate shock from an arrow, most times the animal doesn't know what hit it.

Bullets kill with the wound, organ and tissue damage, and damage from hydrostatic shock.

 

[birddog]

Okay, so arrows kill by making an animal bleed out, while bullets kill by... magic? That sure clears that up.

I don't think anyone said that. Yes, bullets can kill just like arrows. But, placed properly, they also have the added advantage of smashing bones, dirsupting the CNS (as in neck and spine shots), and "breaking an animal down"(by smashing a shoulder or two) as the PH's say.

I've trailed a LOT of bear and deer taken with bullets and arrows, and with proper shot placement, both end up equally as dead. The difference is -- generally -- in how far and fast they are capable of going in their last-second death sprints. Last year's buck shot through the shoulder with a 30.06 went about ten paces. Last year's buck with the bow went about 100.

There is a difference.

 

[Charles S]

Find an experienced bow hunter. Learn from him.

That is excellent advice. I have always wanted to bow hunt, but I did not start until I found a mentor.

With a mentor your success rate will be better and a good mentor can seriously shorten the time it takes you to learn to be a bow hunter.

Charles

 

[RyanM]

Actually, they have been saying that. "Arrows kill by hemmorhage, bullets kill by something else." So it's possible to kill an animal with a bullet _without_ hitting the CNS or making it bleed out? That's what everyone else seems to think.

Bullets kill with the wound, organ and tissue damage, and damage from hydrostatic shock.

Bleeding out isn't mentioned. Just "wound," "damage," and a phenomenon which has been conclusively proven to cause zero damage (assuming he meant actual hydrostatic shock, i. e. the sonic pressure wave, and not temporary cavitation).

arrows kill differently than bullets do... it all boils down to a disruption of vital function, but, very generally, arrows kill thru hemorage

"Arrows kill through hemmorhage," with the implication that bullets don't.

 

[dakotasin]

why imply something that isn't there?
the discussion was centered about arrows and broadheads - thus leaving the bullet discussion out. i think your concerns have been adequately addressed, though.

 

[stevelyn]

I took two caribou walking in a single file line at about 40 yrds. Both arrows whistled right through them. Neither acted as if they were hit and continued walking until they fell over.

 

[one-shot-one]

oh yes

62# PSE cam bow w/110 gr. kopline twister broadheads.
spike buck, 27 yards, hit broke a rib going in (could see X were blades whent thru) poped heart broke rib going out and lost arrow never did find it. deer ran less than 10 yards.
as far as prep; practice/practice/practice different angles and yards, get very use to your equiptment.

 

[Sunray]

"...while bullets kill by... magic?..." Shock mostly. The amount of blood loss from a bullet hit isn't that great. The shock is enormous though.
Shooting a bow, any bow, uses muscles you use for nothing else. Upper body tone is essential. Especially your upper back. Generally, if you can't easily lift the same weight as the draw weight of a bow, you won't be able to shoot it well enough for hunting. IE. If your bow has a 50 pound draw weight, you need to be able to easily lift 50 pounds of sand and hold it without hurting yourself.
Push the bow away from you as you pull the string while you're raising it to eye level. You should be at full draw by the time you've raised the bow. This push/pull technique makes archery much easier on your back and shoulders.
"...my technique..." Yep. I'd bet you're moving the bow to see where the arrow went. Hold still upon release until the arrow hits.
Saw an African hunting documentary long ago. The guy shot a bull elephant in the lungs with a 100 pound bow, I think it was. The elephant ran for a mile and dropped dead.