Are Manual Safeties on Striker Fired Handguns Heresy??

[trackskippy]

Why not just buy a gun that fits your needs, or as close to it, instead of messing with factory parts and questionable aftermarket gizmos?

I know a lot of people like to accessorize, but I think a lot of whats done isnt necessarily good or even functional, and often just makes the gun less safe, especially in the hands of someone who thinks they can buy skill and safety.

I certainly wouldnt mess with things like triggers, modifications that might cause it to not work, etc, on a gun I was going to carry and want to count on as close to 100% as possible to work.

If you feel the need to have a gun with a manual safety, get a gun with a manual safety, and one that youre comfortable with. This isnt rocket science.

From what Ive seen, and I have a pretty broad experience with a lot of different handguns (and long guns), most of the better known brands with good reps come from the factory fully functional and useable without need for any kind of mechanical modifications.

Unless youve got some physical issue or weirdness going on, its usually not the gun that needs work, if you cant work it, shoot it well, or handle it safely as it comes.

 

[danez71]

Actually, I try to get my finger as close to the tip of the trigger as I can when pulling it. It gives better leverage which results in a lighter effective pull weight. I also try to keep the pull weight measurements close to the trigger tip because that's where I try to keep my finger.

At any rate, in the interest of being able to make apples-to-apples comparisons, the trigger travel figures I provided were all measured at the tip of the trigger.

Your method of measurement is fundamentally incorrect and does not provide and apples to apples comparison.


National Institute of Standards and Technology, US Dept of Commerce. Firearms & Toolmarks Subcommittee

Position/alignment of the measurement device with the region on the trigger where the shooter’s index finger would typically rest,

Safe to say the spec wasn't written specifically for you and where you put your finger.

Measuring from the tip does not provide an apples to apples comparison as the distance from where the finger rests to the tip of the trigger varies and is not the same shape which will distort the results.

 

[Homerboy]

Why not just buy a gun that fits your needs, or as close to it, instead of messing with factory parts and questionable aftermarket gizmos?

I know a lot of people like to accessorize, but I think a lot of whats done isnt necessarily good or even functional, and often just makes the gun less safe, especially in the hands of someone who thinks they can buy skill and safety.

I certainly wouldnt mess with things like triggers, modifications that might cause it to not work, etc, on a gun I was going to carry and want to count on as close to 100% as possible to work.

If you feel the need to have a gun with a manual safety, get a gun with a manual safety, and one that youre comfortable with. This isnt rocket science.

From what Ive seen, and I have a pretty broad experience with a lot of different handguns (and long guns), most of the better known brands with good reps come from the factory fully functional and useable without need for any kind of mechanical modifications.

Unless youve got some physical issue or weirdness going on, its usually not the gun that needs work, if you cant work it, shoot it well, or handle it safely as it comes.

I agree. I don’t modify much of anything on a gun, but the aftermarket parts for guns is as big a market as the gun itself. Probably bigger.

But you just answered your own question. A double sided safety doesn’t fit my needs. I don’t need or want a safety on the right side. But I like everything else about the M&P series, so I don’t want to buy a gun with a single sided safety that has other features I don’t want.

And a single sided safety at least has some merit. Most of the other aftermarket stuff is completely useless. Take the Apex trigger. Never thought the M&P 1.0 trigger was so bad, but the Apex became internet’s “must have” if you owned one. 2.0 is much better trigger, but still not an Apex, so change it out. Does anybody really need extended mag releases or slide locks on their Glock?

The aftermarket exists and it’s only getting bigger. S&W will sell you a double sided safety Why wouldn’t they sell a single side version? Make it thinner? Change the pressure needed to engage it? And if they won’t, why hasn’t somebody else stepped in? They make every other mostly cosmetic part, 99% of it is completely unneeded.

and there’s no physical issue that makes me want a single sided, thinner safety. It makes the gun wider than it needs to be, increases the chances of engaging it accidentally with the safety on both sides, and a more positive click reduces the possibility of engaging or disengaging when not intended. It’s one of the few changes to a gun that does make sense to me. Galloway Precision or Apex can keep the rest of their stuff.

 

[trackskippy]

I have a High Power with an extended factory ambi safety, and I don't like it. I live with it, but I don't like it. Could I have it switched to a single, sure, but this one works fine, mostly stays on when I want it, comes off when I want it, and I shoot it enough to know not to have my trigger finger where it going to be pinched as I sweep the safety off on the draw. Wasnt hard to figure that out or make it happen.

Glock makes factory extended slide stops, so Id call that a factory option, not aftermarket. I do like them. They make releasing the slide easier and more positive. Ive always found the mag release to be fine, and prefer the mag to be in the gun when I need it most. Then again, that could be a simple holster change too, but now things are getting more complicated.

I had a P7M13 that liked to drop the mag from the gun while in the holster. At the time, you had two choices for a holster, and both, while quality holsters, were not good designs. A good, well designed kydex holster would have been the ticket there.

That P7 was actually a very good gun, and safety wise, probably one of the safest. But, it too had its quirks, and if you had your finger on the trigger when you cocked it, the gun would go off. If you weren't dedicated to shooting them properly, you might not cock it on the draw or picking it up. So both ways, the safety could be trouble, if you weren't up to putting in the time to learn the gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, yes, the P7. I had an early one with the heel magazine catch. Accurate and handy, I never shot it so fast as to heat it up unpleasantly.
BUT, I had learned with conventional pistols, to take a firing grip as soon as I touched the butt in the holster. With the P7 that gave me a cocked gun with 3 lb trigger in the holster, which made me nervous. So I developed kind of a "plucking" draw that did not have me squeezing until the gun was clear, about like knocking down the thumb safety on a 1911. That took practice and I could not flip flop back and forth between P7 and 1911 or revolver. So I sold it South.

 

[Homerboy]

I have a High Power with an extended factory ambi safety, and I don't like it. I live with it, but I don't like it. Could I have it switched to a single, sure, but this one works fine, mostly stays on when I want it, comes off when I want it, and I shoot it enough to know not to have my trigger finger where it going to be pinched as I sweep the safety off on the draw. Wasnt hard to figure that out or make it happen.

Glock makes factory extended slide stops, so Id call that a factory option, not aftermarket. I do like them. They make releasing the slide easier and more positive. Ive always found the mag release to be fine, and prefer the mag to be in the gun when I need it most. Then again, that could be a simple holster change too, but now things are getting more complicated.

I had a P7M13 that liked to drop the mag from the gun while in the holster. At the time, you had two choices for a holster, and both, while quality holsters, were not good designs. A good, well designed kydex holster would have been the ticket there.

That P7 was actually a very good gun, and safety wise, probably one of the safest. But, it too had its quirks, and if you had your finger on the trigger when you cocked it, the gun would go off. If you weren't dedicated to shooting them properly, you might not cock it on the draw or picking it up. So both ways, the safety could be trouble, if you weren't up to putting in the time to learn the gun.

Your indifference to aftermarket (and I’d still call Glock’s extended slide lock aftermarket. Glock made them after they saw the success from the other companies who made them. They just wanted to capitalize on them.) parts doesn’t negate their existence. You can change virtually every part on a Glock and substitute it with something else. I built a Ruger 10/22 and there is not one Ruger part in it. Not one. The market exists. I don’t know why an aftermarket safety wouldn’t be offered when an aftermarket mag release, trigger, or slide lock is. There have been enough complaints in the internet about it. Somebody in this thread referred to the safety in the M&P as the size of a slice of pizza. Sure, I live with the safeties the way there are. I carry my Shield Plus with safety on. Draw it 20-30 times a day (unloaded), and disengage safety. Never had a problem. But I’d like it a hair wider. I thought the safety in my old SR9 was the perfect size. One sided and not wide.

 

[trackskippy]

All Im saying about aftermarket is I dont see the point if the factory works. And most of the time it does.

If it offers something I think is useful, and wont affect how the gun works, or might work, or become a safety issue, I might and in some cases do use them. Generally though, I dont do much modification wise, maybe sights and stippling on plastic grips, neither of which affect the function of the gun.

Personally, I dont think the aftermarket triggers, especially the silly light ones, are a good idea. Ive never had troubles with any of the triggers in the factory guns Ive had and have no problem shooting them well with the stock triggers.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don’t know why an aftermarket safety wouldn’t be offered

It is... or was. The Cominoli Glock safety. Brownells says discontinued but Ten Ring shows it, with caveats about Gen 5 and subcompacts.
https://tenring.com/glock-pistol-wo...hing the chance of an unintentional discharge.

 

[JR24]

Tau device too, which I think is more useful for those worried about "Glock Leg"

 

[Zendude]

That's not really redundant because it still depends on the same system that is expected to fail. Imagine a "redundant" system on an aircraft that depends on the system it's supposed to replace in the event of a failure.

I would consider it redundant in the sense that the user would have to make two mistakes simultaneously to have a ND rather than only one mistake. The chances of making two mistakes is less than only one. Pilot error can make any plane crash if enough simultaneous mistakes are made. Risk is a sliding scale of probabilities , not a yes/no equation.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Why not just buy a gun that fits your needs, or as close to it, instead of messing with factory parts and questionable aftermarket gizmos?

That makes the assumption that ANYONE makes a gun that fits my needs or that I can afford a gun that fits my needs. I've found that more often than not I need to modify products to fit my needs. With my Sig P365 I've made a number of relatively minor modifications that made a big difference to me. I've also performed some fine finishing work that Sig didn't bother to do with their mass produced product. Fortunately, the P365 platform allows you to easily add or remove the manual safety.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I agree. I don’t modify much of anything on a gun, but the aftermarket parts for guns is as big a market as the gun itself. Probably bigger...........
..............And a single sided safety at least has some merit. Most of the other aftermarket stuff is completely useless. Take the Apex trigger. Never thought the M&P 1.0 trigger was so bad, but the Apex became internet’s “must have” if you owned one. 2.0 is much better trigger, but still not an Apex, so change it out.

Aftermarket parts are a mixed blessing. Sometimes they work great and other times not so much. Sometimes you need to do additional finishing work to make them fit or work properly.

The trigger on my P365X was gritty. But after some polishing work on the trigger system, the trigger pull is now very smooth. It measures about a 7 lb pull, which for a conceal carry gun seems reasonable for safety considerations. I don't feel any need to change the stock curved trigger to either Sig's flat trigger or some other aftermarket trigger. But to each their own.

Does anybody really need extended mag releases or slide locks on their Glock?

Glocks I don't know about, but I do believe that I NEED an extended magazine release on my P365X. Everyone was so worried that I might accidentally drop a mag with an "extended" magazine release on my P365X. As it turns out the stock Sig P320 has a magazine release that protrudes just about the same amount as the "extended" magazine release on my P365X. Whether or not you can benefit from an extended magazine release depends a lot on your own anatomy and also your carry method.

Personal anatomy and priorities vary considerably from person to person. What someone wants for their range toy is not necessarily right for my conceal carry gun. That's why I think that there is a need for many of these aftermarket products.

 

[5-SHOTS]

Heresy? No.

 

[trackskippy]

That makes the assumption that ANYONE makes a gun that fits my needs or that I can afford a gun that fits my needs. I've found that more often than not I need to modify products to fit my needs. With my Sig P365 I've made a number of relatively minor modifications that made a big difference to me. I've also performed some fine finishing work that Sig didn't bother to do with their mass produced product. Fortunately, the P365 platform allows you to easily add or remove the manual safety.

I guess Im lucky, given a little time with pretty much anything, and I don't seem to have any troubles getting them to work/shoot OK as they come.

If I had to really bitch about anything, its the aggressiveness of the grips, or lack of it on most of them, especially the plastic guns. My hands are still fairly heavily calloused, and I need/prefer an aggressive grip texture. No biggie really if they arent, but its usually better if they are, especially with damp/wet hands. Its usually easily remedied on the plastic guns. Not so much, or as easy on the steel/alloy guns.

Ive owned quite a few P series SIG's, and liked most of them. Ive handled a couple of the 365's and wasn't real impressed with them. The grip is cramped, similar to the Glock 19's grip, and I didn't see it doing anything better that my 26's. No fiddling is really necessary with them either, and they take the same mags as my 17's and 19's.

 

[Homerboy]

Tau device too, which I think is more useful for those worried about "Glock Leg"

The Tau device is awesome. It's the one thing that would let me carry a Glock again. But the owner of the company said they have no plans to offer it for the M&P line. If they did, every one of my M&P's would have one. The Cominoli device came around much earlier in Glock's run where people were still kind of leery about them. It always looked like an afterthought and not very intuitive. But Glock made their US Army 19X pistol with a safety. Of course, they don't offer it to the public.

 

[JR24]

Heresy? No.
View attachment 1015726
View attachment 1015727

Eww. Taurus...


Kidding, I finally tried one of those and they are pretty nice. I didn't feel like it needed the safety but it's in a good location and seemed easy to use.

I guess Im lucky, given a little time with pretty much anything, and I don't seem to have any troubles getting them to work/shoot OK as they come.

If I had to really bitch about anything, its the aggressiveness of the grips, or lack of it on most of them, especially the plastic guns. My hands are still fairly heavily calloused, and I need/prefer an aggressive grip texture. No biggie really if they arent, but its usually better if they are, especially with damp/wet hands. Its usually easily remedied on the plastic guns. Not so much, or as easy on the steel/alloy guns.

Ive owned quite a few P series SIG's, and liked most of them. Ive handled a couple of the 365's and wasn't real impressed with them. The grip is cramped, similar to the Glock 19's grip, and I didn't see it doing anything better that my 26's. No fiddling is really necessary with them either, and they take the same mags as my 17's and 19's.

Yeah, I don't mess around with guns much apart from changing the sights and maybe adding grip tape. If it lacks features I want or has features I dislike, I just move to one of the plethora of other guns that will fit my needs better.

And if I do get one, I definatley don't monkey with the trigger. Dry fire and the cost of the fancy mods in ammo will get me to good performance with anything, once I put my mind to it.

 

[trackskippy]

Eww. Taurus...


Kidding, I finally tried one of those and they are pretty nice. I didn't feel like it needed the safety but it's in a good location and seemed easy to use.

LOL. I was holding my tounge thinking the O Light probably cost more than the gun, realizing and Im the guy who puts a $500 Aimpoint on a $100 mount, on a $250 AK.

Hey, if it works, dont knock it.

 

[JohnKSa]

Your method of measurement is fundamentally incorrect and does not provide and apples to apples comparison.

Thanks for providing the information from the NIST--it honestly never occurred to me that there was a standard for measuring trigger pull weight.

In spite of the NIST's guidelines, I'll probably keep measuring mine the same way I always have since it corresponds to my finger placement. But I'll be sure to provide that information in the future (as I did here) so anyone reading the my trigger measurements will know how the measurement was done.

I would consider it redundant in the sense that the user would have to make two mistakes simultaneously to have a ND rather than only one mistake.

Partially redundant? Quasi-redundant?

The it takes "two mistakes simultaneously" to cause an unintentional discharge is not really an accurate characterization. Let's look at just one possible scenario. If the manual safety is managed properly as it is normally taught (disengaged on the draw) then from that point on (until the safety is re-enabled), the gun is just as susceptible to a trigger discipline failure as if there were no manual safety at all. So in that case, at least, there's not two mistakes required to have an unintentional discharge--it takes only one. In fact, ironically in that general scenario if the manual safety were mishandled (not disengaged on the draw as it should have been) that single mistake might actually cancel out a subsequent trigger discipline error and prevent an unintentional discharge. Of course it would also defeat, or at least delay, the ability of the user to accomplish the purpose of drawing the gun in the first place.

That's just one scenario, but it shows that it's more complicated than just being able to say that two simultaneous mistakes are required to cause an unintentional discharge. It might take two, it might still only take one, it might even be that two mistakes could effectively cancel each other out.

 

[Old Dog]

Up to 12 pages of this thread now and no consensus? Whew!

I still believe folks who are focus on trigger-pull weight are really on the wrong track. When people are stressed, stoned, drunk, excited, curious, small children, whoever, trigger pull weight doesn't matter. The trigger WILL get pulled, there will be a discharge.

It wasn't this discussion, but instead a Warrior Poet Society video on YouTube, t

Yeah, sorry, but I have a difficult time taking seriously these 28 year old dudes who maybe did a couple deployments, got out after four or six years, and are suddenly "experts" on all things firearms-related. I'm kinds gettin' to the point where a big beard, full-sleeve tats, tight black T-shirts and a You Tube website make me not want to listen to anything these guys have to say about firearms.

However, if this guy really did convince you a manual safety was a good idea, then maybe I need to re-evaluate my opinion of some of these You-Tubers...

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I still believe folks who are focus on trigger-pull weight are really on the wrong track. When people are stressed, stoned, drunk, excited, curious, small children, whoever, trigger pull weight doesn't matter. The trigger WILL get pulled, there will be a discharge.

I can't disagree with that. But a heavier pull will still be less dangerous than a lighter pull. For concealed carry, to me that means having a trigger with a heavier pull, ALONG with a manual safety, and also carried inside a holster that protects the trigger from accidental access, being preferable.

However, if this guy really did convince you a manual safety was a good idea, then maybe I need to re-evaluate my opinion of some of these You-Tubers...

Like everything else, some people know what they are talking about and others are full of bull waste.

My favorite firearms YouTuber is Paul Harrell. He seems to be a very common sense kinda guy and he does practical testing. https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulHarrell/videos

For firearms 2A legal issues I like these attorneys:
Colion Noir: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrColionNoir/videos
Armed Scholar: https://www.youtube.com/c/ArmedScholar/videos

For a non-attorney 2A political viewpoint I like:
Langley Outdoors Academy: https://www.youtube.com/c/LangleyFirearmsAcademy/videos

 

[Trey Veston]

I like having the option of a safety, but it isn't a deal breaker. My most carried carry gun is a P365 with a manual safety. My second most carried carry gun is a Glock G23.

Before those two, I carried a S&W M&P40c with a safety. However, that safety is actually a negative since it is too big, and too easy to engage or disengage. You could manipulate it by looking at it. Horrible design.

I demonstrated this in a video a week or so ago, starting at 6:13...

 

[5-SHOTS]

Eww. Taurus...


Kidding, I finally tried one of those and they are pretty nice. I didn't feel like it needed the safety but it's in a good location and seemed easy to use.

It seems a nice pistol for the price. I only fired 200 rounds with it but it was 100% and pretty accurate. The safety is placed right, very positive and you can ignore it if you want.

 

[5-SHOTS]

LOL. I was holding my tounge thinking the O Light probably cost more than the gun, realizing and Im the guy who puts a $500 Aimpoint on a $100 mount, on a $250 AK.

Hey, if it works, dont knock it.

LOL!
No, the O-Light costs alot less than the pistol and I have only one O-Light for three pistols.
I'm not the type of guy that buy a 500 dollars Glock and then put 100 dollars for iron sights and 250 dollars for trigger parts.

 

[Trey Veston]

LOL!
No, the O-Light costs alot less than the pistol and I have only one O-Light for three pistols.
I'm not the type of guy that buy a 500 dollars Glock and then put 100 dollars for iron sights and 250 dollars for trigger parts.

I am...

 

[gnappi]

Maybe a better question is why would anyone care what someone else likes or uses? It's like railed guns, the vast majority of guns have them I generally don't buy them, and could care less what other peeps hang on theirs, or not.