Are SxS shotguns used by professionals?

[jakemccoy]

A fair number of gun owners have claimed that a SxS is more effective for home defense than a pump shotgun.

Then, it struck me that I have never seen photos of modern day professionals (cops or soldiers) using a SxS shotgun on their jobs. One would think that if a SxS shotgun is honestly more effective than a pump shotgun, then I should be able to find some photos of modern professionals using SxS shotguns on their jobs.

Why don't more professionals use SxS shotguns?

 

[Avtomat Kalashnikova]

limited ammo capacity, the only reason someone might say an SxS is better for hd is because you can make a very fast follow up shot, but if you miss with that one, your screwed.

 

[mrjohnston]

that a SxS pump is more effective

Because it loads two at a time and has the option to run buck and slug simultaneously. Does said double pump have two triggers?

In reality, because technology has came a long long ways and even autos are reliable enough to be used in combat.

 

[Oyeboten]

If close enough, the open Barrel ends of an SxS may look more dramatic to the imminent recipient of it's drama...

 

[leadcounsel]

Soldiers rarely use shotguns. When we do it's usually for entry work, and usally to breach doors by blasting the locks/hinges/handles with semi-autos or pumps.

Cops use pumps or semi autos.

Why do professionals not use SxS shotguns? Cops and professionals are LIKELY to run into more than one or two armed persons and are on the offenseive, whereas for home defense the home owner is on the defensive and it would be very rare for aggressors to number more than one or two, and for them to continue the attack after shots from a shotgun. The attackers would have to be VERY motivated to continue an invasion after a couple of blasts from a 12 gauge. In all likelihood home invaders would be either dead or retreat whereas Soldier and police are attacking cornered and well armed people who are entrenched and expected to fight back.

A SxS is a good tool. If used in my arsenal I would not expect to reload it. I would fire both barrels and drop it and draw a pistol or other weapon. Reloads are too slow. However the advantage is two immediate barrels.

 

[ArmedBear]

leadcounsel, you'd be surprised at how quickly someone with some skill and practice can reload a SxS, even with extractors. With ejectors, it's really quick if you have good access to additional pairs of shells.

In close quarters, I'm with you. I'd drop it in favor of a pistol. But it can be reloaded if there's a need.

 

[leadcounsel]

I don't dispute that with a lot of practice it can be reloaded quickly. Just too much of a finese skill for my tastes during a shooting when fine motor skills are difficult. I'm in favor of drop primary and draw secondary weapon skills...

And reloads often cause the shooter to look DOWN... bad idea. Keep your eye on the ball, drop and draw.

 

[ArmedBear]

There's a clay game called "flurries" where there are several traps in continuous mode, all throwing targets as fast as they can cycle, and a couple of shooters with break-action guns and a row of shells in front of them. The object is to shoot as many targets out of the air as possible, while reloading constantly.

It's a lot of fun, and it trains you to keep your eyes up and on the targets while reloading by feel. The only problem is that you go through a lot of clays and ammo in a short time, so it's not cheap to do it for long.

However, I think I see a 12 Gauge in the scenario you describe as a "shock and awe" weapon anyway. After a couple of shots, skilled pistol fire would be a better option. I'm not all that convinced of the overall superiority of a shotgun for all civilian home defense applicatons. Sure, it hits a lot harder than the best .45, but it's much less maneuverable in tight spaces than a pistol.

 

[mrjohnston]

I'm even in favor of ditching my pump in the middle of a a fire fight, instead of reloading. However, if I shoot 7 times and feel the need to draw my handgun, I think I will have pissed off the wrong people. I do not look at a shotgun as a tailsman, it is a defensive tool to be used to ensure the safety of me and mine. I use a pump because I've been shooting a pump since I was 8. I do feel as thought I can run it in my sleep and probably have before at shooting time 30 minutes before the sun even thinks about coming up. If you feel that same comfort with a double then by all means, set a double by your bed.

 

[ArmedBear]

I figure, the first two shots should drop two attackers. If not, practice was in order...

However, if you fire those two shots, and there are still more attackers, they've probably taken cover. As leadcounsel said, multiple attackers are rare, and more than two are rarer still. You're dealing with a different class of criminal. Then, a more maneuverable, more surgical weapon would probably be best, unless you want to stand out in the middle of a room with a shotgun while you're being shot from cover.

That's what I meant by "shock and awe." No firearm should ever be thought of as a talisman.

 

[Virginian]

Keep in mind that when it comes to sex, prostitutes are the "professionals." That take any polish off the advice for you?

 

[Dirty Bob]

IMHO, the advantages of a SxS are more of interest to a HD shooter:

o Simplicity, especially in a gun that may sit unused for long periods of time
o Safety - break it open to clear (important when the cops show up)
o Compact storage, either assembled or broken down for discrete travel
o Reliability: double trigger guns are essentially two guns welded together
o Two FAST shots - HD situations can develop quickly
o Twin muzzles may stop a situation w/o a shot being fired
o Hammer guns can sit loaded for years with no problem
o Non-threatening, "ordinary" appearance, compared to some guns

For some, the SxS may be the most effective HD long gun they can legally own. They may also face fewer legal restrictions than handguns.

In the Navy, we used Mossberg 500s in the 1980s, and they served their purpose very well, along with M-14s, 1911s and 1911A1s, M-60s, and M-79s.

Respectfully,
Dirty Bob

 

[ArmedBear]

Keep in mind that when it comes to sex, prostitutes are the "professionals."

Never hired one. Maybe they really are experts at what they do (I'm thinking clean Nevada brothel hookers, not crackhead streetwalkers, of course).

 

[oneounceload]

As to why more LEO et al don't use them - cost is a major factor. Well-made SxS's run well into the thousands, with bespoke guns into the hundreds of thousands. While there are a few very cheap (and cheaply made IMO) SxS's - they tend not to stand up to the rigors that LEO or military seem to require.

A well-made SxS has a wonderful balance and "feel" to it that makes it handle like a wand and not a tree branch.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I think you've taking the previous thread out of context. What people were arguing is if a sxs can be an effective Home Defense gun. Will the sxs do the job? Do pros use it? I don't think so but thats because they have a different definition of Job, other than "home defense". Based on your argument all local PD's should be carrying MP5s and granades.

I don't think a sxs would be very affective going house to house in Iraq, but for a home owner locked with his familly in a bedroom with the police on the phone, as sxs can be a formidable weapon and means of immediate defense. As I mentioned before we are talking about home defense and not civil war, police action or an attack by a team of special forces trained hired help.

A snub nose .38 can be an affective tool for HD but it's also not a primary carry piece for law enforement or military. Same goes for Walther PPK , or a Ruger 10/22. Recently I've read in the "Armed Citizen" section of the American Rifleman magazine, people have fended off attackers with 22 caliber rifles. No joke

 

[ArmedBear]

Armed Citizen can be disturbing. I just read a bit where a family fired a shotgun several times at home invaders, and "may have wounded" one of them. This was the second time the criminals came, and they said they were back to kill the father, who had reported the first invasion.

He said, "This time, we were ready."

I say, "If you were ready, how in hell did you only possibly wound one of them, with a shotgun, at close range?!?" Facing armed men who attacked a second time, and said specifically that they were back to kill me, I wouldn't be firing any warning shots. So I have to assume, neither was this guy.

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW as I said in the other post, my concern with a SxS for HD is that I don't know about any available quality "coach guns" with single, mechanical-select triggers and automatic ejectors. I occasionally hunt with an antique double-trigger extractor double, and I would rather not use that for HD, particularly since 99.9% of the trigger time I have, is with single-trigger shotguns.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

That's is scary. As for the home owner, maybe the guy was so scared that he didn't aim and shot from the hip. Maybe he only thought he was prepared cause he had a gun, but didn't train with it. Maybe he was shooting down the hall in the dark? Still scary though.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Up until fairly recently, some "professionals" (NYPD) did use SxS shotguns- the Stevens 311R, to be precise. That is (or was) the factory produced riot version of the old standby 311 double barrel. 311Rs still turn up on the used market from time to time. But the 311 has joined the ash heap of manufacturing history, like most other US manufactured double barrels.

Most folks these days settle for the larger magazine capacity and lower invoice price of a good solid pumpgun for defensive use. Except for the ones who have huge budgets- they buy semiauto fighting shotguns, or else have abandoned the shotgun altogether and moved to carbines.

I'd be careful about putting too much stock in what some so-called "professional" (LE or military) does anyway. It's better to be more objective than that IMHO.

ymmv of course,

lpl

 

[oletymer]

I think Lovesbeer may be right. Especially if the intruders were shooting at him. Most people have never been in a situation like that. It is easy to talk about it, another to be involved in it.

 

[mrjohnston]

ArmedBear, I see what you mean by shock and awe, I was a tad sleepy last night.

There isn't another viable HD weapon that has the presence of a shotgun. The muzzle blast alone out of a shotgun indoors is horrendous, imagine your BG #2, and you hear the first shot, do you run to BD #1's aid or the oppisite direction? I'd be headed the other way.

Then agian I have to wonder how that works on this end. Is it like hunting where your don't really hear it, in a state of tachypsychia?

 

[arizona98tj]

As to why more LEO et al don't use them - cost is a major factor. Well-made SxS's run well into the thousands, with bespoke guns into the hundreds of thousands. While there are a few very cheap (and cheaply made IMO) SxS's - they tend not to stand up to the rigors that LEO or military seem to require.

This has me scratching my head....just a bit anyway.

A department will buy a batch of 870s or 500s, for use by their personnel, at a unit price of several hundred dollars. And yet it costs several thousand dollars for an equally reliable SxS? I don't understand how a typical pump with all of its moving parts can be so reliable with a much lower cost than a SxS with a simpler design that sells for perhaps 10 times the price.

Is it just because so many pumps are manufactured compared to the # of SxS?

 

[Balog]

The guy in a butcher shop probably uses different knives than a home cook. A general contractor uses different tools than a guy in his garage workshop. A moving company drives a different truck than a guy switching apartments. Nascar uses different vehicles than sumdood driving to work.

Cops use it therefore it's best is a highly fallacious argument. You're not a cop so why are you so worried about what they use? Reminds me of all the 350lb guys who need to have what the "real operators" use.

Home defense has different needs and concerns than .mil, just as concealed carry has different needs and concerns than a cop.

 

[rcmodel]

There is no safe way to carry a loaded double-gun in a squad car, or a Humvee!

A repeater is good to go with a full mag and an empty chamber all the time, until you really really need it loaded.
Which takes about 1/2 second to pump it once.

rc

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Hey Arizona - a lot of pumps, as reliable as they are, can be made of stamped steel parts and such. sxs are not that easy from a manufacturing standpoint. I could be wrong but that's my impression.