Are there any negatives to a ramp job on a 1911?

[brentn]

Other than having it totally screwed up becuase you ground down to much? I would never attempt this myself, but I'm just wondering if it affects the 1911 at all. As in why didn't browning do the same at the time? I know there weren't hollow points back then, at least I'm pretty sure there weren't, but there were flat points and such. Or did the 45acp only come in FMJ back then?

Would fouling be more of a problem with that much more space inside, causing rounds to jam or something after extended shooting?

Post up your thoughts, thanks.

 

[MacEntyre]

Somebody should ask 1911Tuner about this... I have a feeling I know what he would say.

 

[Kevin108]

Tuner would probably ask if your 1911 is having trouble feeding HPs then if so to explain what kind of jam it is and if you can take pics. From there he'd probably tell you to try a specific type of magazine that would make the problem go away without having made any modifications.

Is that about right J?

 

[1911Tuner]

Ramps

Now there's a subject near and dear to my heart...

One of the cornerstones of feed reliability in the 1911 pistol is the magazine.
The other is ramp geometry...feed and barrel ramp. (I've started refusing to call it the "Barrel Throat" because...that's not what it is.)

Just because a given magazine costs 30 bucks a copy and all the top guns use it is no guarantee that it's good. Nor because it's new. Many magazines are designed to feed specific bullet profiles...and most often target-style semi wadcutters which are also generally downloaded. The lighter the ammo, the less critical the magazine spring. The shorter the OAL, the more critical the release point. Wadcutters tend to be loaded to a shorter overall length, so an early, abrupt release point works well for that particular round. Because more often than not, they're also loaded to a less rambunctious power level, the slide speeds and inertial forces during recoil are reduced...which means that the spring doesn't have to be as stout in order to maintain control of the rounds.

If the feed and barrel ramp geometry are right...and the proper/correct magazine for the ammo is used, and it has a spring that's up to the task...
no alteration of the ramps is necessary in order to feed. I have several original, unaltered USGI pistols ranging from 1912 to 1945 production...and
from four of the five WW2 contractors...(Sorry. Not a Singer in the collection)...that can't tell the difference between hardball and hollowpoints and 200-grain semi-wadcutters...as long as they're fed from good magazines. There are too many of'em to attribute this performance to a fluke, or "Luck of the Draw." They all do it...and they'll even do it when used with the original "Hardball Only" magazine design. Stick a modern "Wadcutter"
magazine in'em, and they'll start to choke with anything except hardball.

Seen many of the old warhorses do the same thing through the years, and by and large, the ones that do give trouble are either non-original guns cobbled up from gunshow parts tables...or worn so badly that they could almost be field-stripped by shaking vigorously.

Standing offer to anyone willing to make the trip...Come and see the old girls gobble the ammo that they're not supposed to eat.

 

[Geno]

1911tuner:

That sounds like my STS Colt Series 70 reissue. I can't make that pistol FTF, FTE, any any other error no matter what I do to her. Seems to have a mind of its own and that mind/inclination is just to run, run and run. I love that pistol.

So, what effect is that dimple on the magazine (upwardly protruding bump) supposed to do? Does it merely life the round a bit to create a more reliable alignment into the thoat for better feeds? To me, the logic of a flat-point .38 Super feeding reliably just doesn't come easy. But, it too feeds like a charm...ne'er a hick-up. Same dimple on the magazines.

Good thread guys! Thanks for the info. Well, I'm off to lust over my pistols some more.

 

[Old Fuff]

Since Colt introduced it's Series 70 pistols they've come with throated barrels (I use the term - It's not correct, but people understand it), but I still have folks tell me that they HAVE to have their barrel worked on. Pure bull....

I don't believe ANYONE makes a USGI barrel anymore, and all of the current guns come with reasonably polished and throated barrels and frame ramps. They jam anyway, not because of the frame ramps and barrels, but becaise of poor workmanship, junk magazines and generally not matching critical dimensions found on the original blueprints. Beyond that, many of them are fitted too tightly, and anything with a barrel length under 4 1/4" is asking for trouble.

The Old Fuff is not a nice person...

He keeps a magazine around that's set up to handfeed fired cases (no bullet) in and out of a pistol with a stock USGI barrel. This set-up has no practical application, but it drives some 1911 owners up the wall...

 

[saltydog452]

The ramp on one of my Colts NEEDED alteration.

It was mis-cut by one of those fine craftsmen at Colt and overlooked by an equally dedicated QC Inspector.

No matter the magazine, or ammunition, it would not reliably feed the top round from a full 7 round mag from slide lock. It would, however, work just dandy with 5 rounds in the mag.

The answer to the original question is a definite 'maybe'.

If your Colt does not work as it should with good ammunition, good mags (and spring), and a correctly tensioned extractor, you might wanna consider other causes.

Mine was feed ramp geometry. It has been fixed. Not by the employees of colt.

My limited experience is kinda like the 'if it isn't broke, don't attempt to fix it' attitude, especially with a Dremel in un-schooled hands. Not much to gain and confusion multiplies if the polishing does not fix the problem.

If polishing is on your 'gotta do' list and necessary for a warm and fuzzy outlook on life in general, use a dab of Simechrome on a tee-shirt, your little finger, and have at it. Maybe for about a mnt or so...once.

Otherwise, I THINK, that if there is a reliability problem, polishing is not a solution, but a contributor.

Name brand 'smiths do it as part of their reliability package.

It may be doubtful if a mirror finish on a feed ramp contributes to reliability, but it sure does look good in the brochures and adds to the 'bottom line' on the invoice.

Polishing should not be necessary for reliability and offers the possibility of more harm than good (especially if not done by a professional).

salty.

 

[1911Tuner]

So, what effect is that dimple on the magazine follower?

Doc...That silly little dimple has been the starting point of many a flame war.
That dimple is important. If it weren't, it would have been eliminated early on.
When you've bid on a contract for a half-million units, and you have a deadline AND a budget to meet...you simply don't do unnecessary steps.

The function of the dimple is twofold. It provides a positive stop for the last round...which is under minimum loading by the magazine spring...and prevents a little inertial trick known as jumping the follower, or jumping the magazine.
A too-weak spring can also be a player in that particular drama...so the dimple has the sub-function of providing backup for the mag spring should it become weakened from overuse.

If you've ever seen a pistol lock the slide back with the last round layin' loose on top of the mag lips...or you've found live rounds among your brass after the session...you've seen that inertial jump.

The secondary function is that it stops that critical last round just before it hits the release point of the magazine, and aids in timing the release. Not as critical in this respect with full-tapered magazine lips, as per the originals...but still important. It's yet another example of Browning's penchant for redundancy. It's all about controlled feed.

The dimple...and to a large extent...the magazine spring tension isn't as critical when the power factor of the ammunition is reduced. The recoil forces and resultant inertial responses of the pistol aren't the same. You can get by without it when using target-level ammo...or "Softball" ammunition common to Bullseye competition. Most 5-inch .45s using ammunition loaded down to 165-170 PF do rather well without it.

 

[brentn]

Well interesting answers, but I still don't have an answer to my question. For the record, there is nothing wrong with my gun, it feeds FMJ PERFECTLY, never had an issue, ever. The magazines are 10$ cndn a piece, yes 10$ and I bought 4, I have never had a feeding problem with FMJ.

I used some winclean that are flat points and they jammed every once in a while.

With that being said, I just wanted to ask if there was any negative side effect to barrel throating (you know what I mean ). As in does it collect more dirt, will it jam more if dirty where as a regular ramped frame/barrel with the same amount of dirt would jam less?

I'm just wondering why browning didn't incorporate a more agressive ramp job for the different kinds of ammo out there, thats all.

Thank you for your replies though, good info.

 

[Old Fuff]

Browning had a specific assignment. To design and perfect a .45 service pistol, and to build it around the cartridge the military specified. At the time it was the only .45 pistol cartridge. This requirement applied to all of the various contenders.

Bowning couldn't foresee that in the late 20th and early 21st centuries certain gunnies would insist on running all sorts of oddball ammunition through his pistol, with mixed results. The customer for which the gun was designed (the U.S. Military Establishment) never used anything other then the specified 230-grain hardball ammunition from 1911 to date. If anyone wanted to use other ammunition they couldn't care less. Were he here, I'm sure Browning would say the same.

For the record, he didn't incorporate a "duckbutt" grip safety either...

 

[RogersPrecision]

brentn,
A 'ramp and throat' job performed by a competent pistolsmith will enhance the function of a 1911. The goal is to allow reliable function with ANY quality ammo through ANY quality magazine.
There is no downside.

 

[1911Tuner]

With that being said, I just wanted to ask if there was any negative side effect to barrel throating

Depends on who does it and how well...or how badly it's done. Overdoing the barrel ramp can result in unsupported case head area, with the possibility of
a catastrophic failure...which vents shards and hot gasses down the magwell and into the magazine...and you can guess the rest. I've seen far too many
such kitchen-table ramp and throat jobs for comfort...and far too many who tackle it without knowing the limitations. Correctly done, it's a good thing. Badly done, and it's a train wreck.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't understand your concern over dirt collection. A proper ramp recontour removes only thousandths, maybe a very few hundredths of an inch of metal. There are no gaping cavities formed to collect fouling.

(Since ramp shaping got to be known erroneously as "throating", one of my guys used a term for a gun that had been excessively cut out... it had had its tonsils removed.)