denton
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That sounds about right.
Are these stats right?
- Thread starter Grayrock
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That sounds about right.
I've been to 18 countries in Europe and 5 in Latin America. I've seen a lot that says the USA has a lot more in common with Europe than Central and South American countries. Levels of income, health outcomes, and education, also show those similarities.
If you include all countries with data, the USA is a little better than average for homicide rates. Is that satisfactory? Is our goal a country to be average?
The goal is to show that these stats are not entirely accurate. Whether or not the USA is average, above average, or below average is not the point.
I too have been to many European nations. Many Asian nations. Many Central American nations. I have never been to South America or Africa. I have been to and spent a lot of time in 48 of the 50 states. I would compare the inner city of Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta and LA to any un-civilized place on earth. There is NO LAW in those streets after dark and little before dark.
Why?
Why? How is it irrelevant that some countries in the world do a better job of preventing homicides than the USA?
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denton
Member
That is still just an assumption, and your personal opinion. Heck yes, you're entitled to it, but without data supporting the notion that they have similar resources and social problems and that these factors drive homicide rates, it is entitled to no more respect than my choice of assumptions. In other words, that choice of assumptions is completely arbitrary.
I choose to assume that we should compare superpowers. That puts us in the middle. Or I choose to assume that we should compare countries that speak English. I haven't done the search, but that at least puts us far from the worst.
As long as I can completely change the outcome by making equally valid assumptions, the result is not entitled to much respect. Making assumptions that create a particular outcome is a tool of the propagandist, which I'm sure you are not.
Now, should we do better? Of course. I'd like to know why the Swedes are a more peaceful people than we are, and see what we can adopt. The Canadians are a fine bunch. I'd like to know why they are doing better than we are in the homicide department.
But there is also no reason to buy into the propaganda put forth by our left, based on unsupported assumptions.
The United States as a whole is not a particularly dangerous place.
Please show me where I used the word irrelevant. Don't take words of your choice and try to make your point by implying that someone else said it. I never said anything was irrelevant but that they were not the point of the discussion.
Huh? What do you mean "why"? We are looking at stats that show beyond a shadow of a doubt (because that's what they are designed to show) that the USA is a violent place because of guns. The point of the argument is to show that the stats are not entirely accurate. I'm not sure which part you are confused about.
The USA does a much better job in certain areas than does the rest of the world. This is evidenced by the lifestyle we enjoy. Of course we have shortcomings, what country doesn't? Do we want less violent crime in our streets? Nobody is implying that we don't. What we as gun owners and 2A supporters really want people and politicians to understand is that looking at handguns and coming up with a "common sense" approach to gun control is a farce. A simplistic approach to a complex problem. It's like saying "put all drug users in jail" and that will solve the problem or "stop selling alcohol" and that will stop drunk driving. Those simplistic solutions work well for uninformed people, simplistic people and people with an agenda. They absolutely do not work in real world applications because things are seldom "simple".
The US has a violent culture. Is that because we have drugs, race relation problems, too many guns, crooked politicians, a screwed up Constitution, all of the above? The last two major world wars were started by the "enlightened" people of Europe so there is a bit of violence in those cultures as well. Ever been to Norway? The places where I stayed were crowded but you could walk the streets any time and never worry about being accosted. Maybe our "melting pot" experiment will eventually be our downfall.
jmorris
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The don't make it in the top 10.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
This may help.
Start on page 19
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
This may help.
Start on page 19
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
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You didn't say the word irrelevant. You said: "Whether or not the USA is average, above average, or below average is not the point." The fact that the the rate of homicide in the USA is well above the average for developed countries is the entire point of the image posted in the OP. Our high levels of homicide and the fact that about 60% of them involve a firearm is the reason that new gun laws and bans continue to come up for discussion in the USA. Fix the crime problem and most of the motivation goes away
I'm confused as to why you say: "The point of the argument is to show that the stats are not entirely accurate." The stats are correct. The point is to show that the conclusion that the person came to (handguns = high homicide rates) is incorrect. If we try to deny the facts we get nowhere.
Yes, I've been to Oslo. Yes, it is a beautiful city and I would have no issue walking down the streets at 2 am (At least the area I was in). On the other hand during my visit to Guatemala City I stayed at a hotel in the Embassy district and one of the local drug gangs bombed a bus 6 blocks from my hotel. (Two guys rode up on motorcycles and threw grenades into a packed bus during rush hour)
How does that help convince someone concerned about homicides that new gun laws aren't the answer? I doubt you will convince them that their concern isn't warranted because homicides don't crack the top 10 causes of death in the USA. To me it shows that you disregards the validity of their concern which isn't a good way to win them over to your way of thinking.
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xxjumbojimboxx
Member
Average is funny like that. Law of large numbers.... Cant avoid being average when your sample size is so big.... Right?
No. The USA is tied for 107th place (out of 218 countries with data) for homicide rate. We are just edging out Yemen and Albania. However with a similar huge sample size we manage 12th out of 194 in GDP per capita.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The major problem is that homicide is a CULTURAL phenomenon, and we are a multi-cultural society.
That's illustrated by the 2012 Chicago police study of homicides. Two-thirds of all homicides were committed by Blacks, one third by Hispanics, and only a little over 3% committed by Whites.
If we could change the Black and Hispanic cultures to match the White culture, the homicide rate would drop by 90%.
That's illustrated by the 2012 Chicago police study of homicides. Two-thirds of all homicides were committed by Blacks, one third by Hispanics, and only a little over 3% committed by Whites.
If we could change the Black and Hispanic cultures to match the White culture, the homicide rate would drop by 90%.
jmorris
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The simple fact is that some people you are not going to change regardless of fact because they hold their opinion based on emotion not fact.
Go look at the 2nd link, to see all causes of death in the U.S. Almost 2,600,000 people that year, bump up the numbers in the attachment the op posted to 11,000 and you still don't have a half percent of cause of death.
Like a 13 year old girl we took along on vacation a few weeks ago. She said the only animals she would eat were fish and chicken, because cows had feelings....
Very true. Some people will not be convinced. However, those aren't the people we need to convince. We need to convince the many people that don't feel strongly about guns one way or another.
denton
Member
I have to side with JSH1 on this one. Showing that firearms homicides are far down the list is not a winning argument. I think these are winning arguments:
1. Study after study has shown no correlation between the strictness of gun laws and homicide rates. Since there is no correlation, pumping more air in your tires and tightening gun laws are equally effective in reducing homicides.
2. John Lott has published a respectable body of research that indicates that more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens tends to reduce crime. If we want to reduce crime, including homicides, part of the answer is to arm more law abiding citizens. Criminals want an easy target, not a fair fight.
3. Many anti-gunners believe that if you could make firearms go away, then firearms deaths would go away. It is much more likely that making firearms go away would not change the homicide rates by much. I note that Malaysia has an automatic death penalty for possession of a firearm and a single cartridge. Yet their homicide rate is pretty close to my home state, which is practically awash in firearms. Despite a lack of firearms, the Malaysians continue to find a way.
On a personal note, my wife and I are in our early 70s. Not long ago, she walked out of a local hospital after visiting a family member, about 9:30 a night. There was a carload of tough looking guys with shaved heads and sunglasses that tried to position themselves to cut her off as she approached her car. As it happened, she was parked so she could evade them. She got in her car, and locked the doors. The carload of tough looking guys pulled up behind her, blocking her in. For a moment, she sat there calmly with her 380 in her lap, considering the fact that she was in a big TrailBlazer and they were in a little sporty car. So she put her car in reverse and started to back up. The tough guys apparently noticed the difference in size of the vehicles, and after she backed up a foot or so a few times, they decided to get out of her way. Since then, she's been a lot more faithful in carrying her concealed firearm. We also added a really bright flashlight and some nasty pepper spray to her purse. Yes, Virginia, firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens do prevent crime.
TimSr
Member
I think a large part of the problem is that there IS no "US culture". We are a country that likes to espouse "diversity" over the old "melting pot", so we now are a nation of many different independant cultures with different values instead of a blended one, and some of those cultures are more violent than others, and some are at extreme odds with others. This is something that most other developed nations do not have to contend with on the level we do. We all know some areas are more violent and dangerous than others, and we all know that is is the predominant values and culture of the people in those areas that make them differ. Some European countries are now beginning to experience something we have contended with years, as cetrain cultures wsih to move in and mantain their own separate culture while greeting the wrong people driving through the wrong areas with violence.
MachIVshooter
Member
How do you get 1.5M texting and driving deaths out of ~40,000 annual MVA fatalities in the US?
It might cause a million and a half accidents, but not deaths.
I have had many conversations with anti gun people. People that use "machine gun" and "100 round clip" and "assault weapon" simply because they heard it on MSNBC. I'm not sure I have ever swayed those people one inch. "Why do you need 100 rounds in your gun"? I ask them why they need a car that will travel 120 MPH since that is illegal on every public highway in the USA.
The ones that didn't grow up around guns and are really afraid of them but not staunchly anti can be swayed. Putting a gun in their hands (often the first gun ever) has a smile on their face very quickly. I took a 51 year old woman out last week. Started with a 22 pistol and worked up to a 1911 and she was screaming by the time she ran out of ammo! "Forget those wimpy guns I like that one"!
The ones that didn't grow up around guns and are really afraid of them but not staunchly anti can be swayed. Putting a gun in their hands (often the first gun ever) has a smile on their face very quickly. I took a 51 year old woman out last week. Started with a 22 pistol and worked up to a 1911 and she was screaming by the time she ran out of ammo! "Forget those wimpy guns I like that one"!
xxjumbojimboxx
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Truth.
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