Are we making a mistake starting newcomers with rifle?

[Mike OTDP]

Scrubbing out my musket after the N-SSA Nationals, it occurred to me that we make a mistake starting people out with rifle. The biggest complaint new BP shooters have is cleaning, which takes far longer than revolver or breechloading carbine. I can have a revolver clean as a whistle in under 20 minutes...musket is more than a half hour to clean and dry. Not to mention needing a rope to get the last few drying patches out.

We might do better to encourage people to start with pistol instead.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I've never timed a cleaning, but I've also never noticed any noteworthy difference in time to clean either.
It really isn't hard, or all that time consuming to clean a firearm in my opinion.

I've never complained about the time it takes to brush my teeth either, but I've heard complaints on the subject as well.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I have...and it takes about twice as long to get that musket clean as anything else I shoot.

 

[Panzerschwein]

We should teach them the best and most efficient ways to clean. As far as starting with musket or rifle, well quite frankly if someone doesn't have the moxie to clean a black powder long gun than maybe it's just not for them.

I think in the end it's something the person has to really want to do. Shooting BP is a commitment and someone has to really want to be doing it to do it. That's one reason why it isn't very popular anymore, at least not compared to AR-15s and Glocks which can provide a lot of fun but with minimal work involved. It takes a certain kind of person to want to seriously shoot BP guns in the 21st century.

 

[Crawdad1]

I don't know Mike, but the cleaning is a big issue with these. Cleaning and time. I friend has a beautiful and I mean beautiful Jud Brennan longrifle that he spent thousands on and his pride and joy, but he doesn't use it anymore. He says, that with the kids and the job and after the divorce he just doesn't have the time anymore but possibly when he retires he'll get back into it. A real shame because not only is that rifle beautiful it is incredibly accurate.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Single shot pistols are so easy to clean in the sink. Can't do that with a long rifle or a fowler.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

I have always cleaned my BP long guns in the sink. Soap and warm water with a cleaning patch and jag to draw the solution up and push back out. Good as new in a flash.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I use a can outside of the house.

 

[Dog Soldier]

It takes some time to properly clean copper from my modern firearms. I find cleaning a BP firearm rather easy. I use 90% Alcohol and Murphy's soap. I pour the mixture down pump it a few time with jag and patch. After a few minutes pour it out. Finish rinse with alcohol. wipe down with Ballstol. I never use water in a modern 4140 steel barrel. Water is an enemy of modern steel barrels.

 

[Mike OTDP]

My method with musket is to pull the barrel. Remove nipple, brush and rinse. Scrub barrel with brush, 10-15 strokes. Pour a cup of water down the barrel to flush. Put end of barrel in a small bucket of cleaner (diluted Simple Green), pump with soaked patch ~20 strokes. Pour cup of water down barrel to flush. Dry with patches...expect to use a rope on the end of the rod to pull the rod clear as you dry the bore. Once dry, run a Ballistol-soaked patch down the bore, wipe the outside down, reassemble. But it's a damned slow process.

 

[rodwha]

I like to use a bore mop for cleaning.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Anytime you put water down the bore of a muzzle loader make sure you displace it. This can be accomplished with 90% alcohol or WD 40. What you don't see is the water that permeates the threads in the breech plug. If you ever have to remove the breech it will likely be rusted in place.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Depends on what you mean by "do better", eh? Do we want somebody to get a cap-n-ball revolver and shoot it a couple times a year, then after several years put it up on the shelf, or do we want to foster active participation in some area of black powder shooting on a regular, continuous basis, hopefully with that person being active on voting in favor of all shooting sports?

So if "cleaning" is harming the hobby then we should all be recommending inexpensive, stainless, inlines. http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/black-powder-firearms/black-powder-in-line-rifles|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/571854780/i/104533380/cva-wolf-northwest-cal-bp-rifle/1786323.uts. Unscrew the plug, clean it like a modern rifle, and if you don't get to it right away, or don't get all the water out, no worries for the most part.

Yet I'm not sure how many new persons are simply yearning to punch paper and burn powder, let alone are balking at cleaning. Maybe we should find out what got them interested? There is a difference between the person who saw a classic western movie, or a TV series like Hell On Wheels, and wants a revolver, compared to a fellow who went to a living history event, or happened to see a rifle or musket being fired at a range. I think we might agree that the objective is to get the new person from spectating and "that looks like fun" to actually shooting and "Wow, that was fun; Can't wait to do that again".

So with that in mind, I think the new person's interests should be considered. If the person simply wants to plink at the range, and enjoys the bang and the smoke, then of course they should get something like an inexpensive Pietta with a brass frame, and shoot only moderate or light loads. http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/black-powder-firearms/black-powder-revolvers|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/571854780/i/567338580/pietta-model-confederate-navy-caliber-black-powder-revolver/740536.uts . I own three, bought many years ago, and they really surprised me at how accurate they were at 25 feet. . If they want something more durable, they should get a steel framed 1858 Remington (imho). http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/black-powder-firearms/black-powder-revolvers|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/571854780/i/567338580/pietta-model-new-army-caliber-black-powder-revolver/731695.uts . Nothing wrong with either for plinking, and the latter is a bit more serious and can be upgraded to a cartridge cylinder for "cowboy loads". If they have the time and skill to finish a kit, there is also a caplock single shot from Traditions. http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/black-powder-firearms/black-powder-pistols|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/571854780/i/104503680/traditions-kentucky-pistol-kit/1646505.uts .

If the person saw a long rifle, or a half-stock, or a CW rifled musket being fired, and that's what got them curious enough to start asking questions, and especially if they actually got a chance to shoot such..., that's what they should be encouraged to do (imho). Especially if they want to hunt deer, and/or the local matches are for long guns as a general rule.

I don't think getting the person who wants to shoot longrifles to buy an 1858 Remmington and starter kit, and then later to drop another $550 for a caplock, longrifle, is the way to approach the newbie. If the person gets into flinters or CW rifled muskets, they will be laying out more than $1000 just to get "started". From what I've seen, the majority of black powder "shooters" (note not "hunters") fall into one of two groups, sorta like two siblings that get along with each other. The ones that really like revolvers and single shot handguns..., and the folks that like traditional long guns. I think that the newbie who wants to shoot revolvers will gravitate in that direction, and the ones that want to shoot long guns will gravitate in that direction. Cleaning notwithstanding.

LD

 

[Patocazador]

I can have a revolver clean as a whistle in under 20 minutes...musket is more than a half hour to clean and dry. Not to mention needing a rope to get the last few drying patches out.

We might do better to encourage people to start with pistol instead.

If they are that lazy, we should recommend shooters with smokeless cartridges.

 

[Ironhand54]

A few observations.

A. I find cleaning a long gun easier than cleaning a revolver.

B. As a newbie the student will have no idea how long it should take to clean a gun so I am not sure this will be a factor.

C. Students want to see holes in the target. The rifle is simple to load and the accuracy means that the student has a good chance of hitting the target. That immediate feedback is what gets people hooked.

D. I am a firearms instructor. Given the choice I will start the student on a rifle.

IronHand

 

[Sunray]

"... start with pistol instead..." Isn't always legally possible in every jurisdiction. A BP rifle is. Anyway, new BP shooters should start with a copy of Lyman's BP Handbook and Reloading Guide. Still trying to get my head around loading by volume.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

↑
Loading by Volume only really applies to the use of BP substitutes. If you use real Black Powder then actual weight and volume measurements are theoretically the same. The only difference being the margin of error.
This is another reason for using real Black Powder

 

[4v50 Gary]

BTW, we should not be discouraged from introducing newcomers to smoke poles. If they are caught up in the enthusiasm of the sport, they won't care about the cleaning process. If they're cheap, the idea of soap and water instead of expensive solvents may be a point of appeal.

 

[desidog]

Every time i've introduced someone to BP, i've not mentioned it and done the cleaning myself. No need to bog down the fun with the chores. Down the road, my friends who've bought a gun after the initial fun, their first range trip with it we can get into Chapter 2: Cleaning.

 

[rodwha]

I've had 5 friends go to the range with me taking revolvers for sure and often enough my sidelock.

1 friend was intimidated for some reason unknown as he never answered why he was unwilling.

1 friend enjoyed all of it but most preferred the muzzleloader. I poke him now and again about when he'll be buying his own. He didn't help clean them but he sat with me while I did and didn't grumble about the process. I'm sure he'd be ok with it.

2 friends had fun, but lost interest with the reloading time/process with the revolvers which is what spurred me to try making paper cartridges. They much preferred the ease of their modern stuff. I get it though. It's not for everyone. But if it is for you it seems you really just jump right on in!

The last friend seemed indifferent. He certainly wasn't going to out and buy one for himself.

 

[44 Dave]

Call me a "little different" but I like cleaning open tops and will take them to the bench and clean them even if they haven't been shot.

 

[Dellbert]

I would start with rifles first.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A short smoothbore caplock musket would be ideal for the beginner.

 

[44 Dave]

I think it depends on the shooters type of use. I started with an old sxs 12 gauge then on to a rifle. Now it is 95% pistol, it is easy to just have it in the truck and if the mood is right stop at the range. My eyes are older and do ok on a pistol sights and distances but rifle sights get fuzzy.

 

[dropkick]

I'm fairly new to bp, but once I figured out my cleaning method my rifle cleans quicker than my pistol.
I clean at the range (I've always been somewhat anal about my weapons cleaning and prefer to do it as soon as possible).

I bring a thermos of very hot water (close to boiling when put in the thermos).
I also bring a dish washing glove to hold the rifle with. It protects my hand from any spills and the heat of the barrel when cleaning.

First I wipe down the rifle with a rag.

Then I put a small piece of leather on the nipple, held in place by the hammer. This acts as a plug so water doesn't drain out the nipple. I pour a small amount of water down the barrel and then plunge the ramrod up and down the barrel a few times. I then pour the water out the end of the barrel. I repeat this a few times until the water runs clean.

Next I remove the barrel, and the nipple.

I have a small container I pour about 3 inches of the water with a squirt of Dawn in. I put the nipple end of the barrel in the water, and I plunge the barrel with the ramrod again, but this time I put a jag and a patch on it. After this I remove it from the soapy water a pour some clear water down the barrel to clear out the soapy water (I also rinse off the end of the barrel).

Then I run a dry patch down it, followed by an oiled patch. (It doesn't take much to dry the barrel as the hot water actually evaporates out of the now uncomfortably warm barrel fairly quickly - big reason to have a dish washing glove).

I swish the nipple around in the soapy water and run a nipple pick through the hole to knock any gunk loose. Then I dump the water and dry and oil the nipple (I usually don't bother rinsing it - doesn't seem to need it).

Occasionally I run a pipe cleaner down the flash hole (correct name? - where the nipple screws in), but I've found that it really doesn't need it.

Lastly I reassemble the weapon and I'm done.



Disclaimer: I have a Cabela's / Investarms 54 caliber Hawken percussion rifle and disassembly is fairly easy. Your rifle may be different.