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Are we our own worst enemy?

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barbara, no one is claiming that sexism doen't exist. but i think it's "over reacting politically correct" nonsense to automatically label someone sexist because he's leaning towards a revolver for their 90 pound girlfreind because she's "too weak to rack the slide". none of us know, we're not there. we can assume he said she's too weak to rack the slide because he sat there and watched. i have a 13 year old nephew that's an all-star pitcher, and he about tosses himself for a flip trying to rack my glock slide, so i don't have a hard time with this one. it's not a poor reflection on a female if she has trouble racking a slide, and if it's true, then it's not a sexist insult for someone to say so. instead of getting all huffy and assuming the guy's a neanderthal, ain't it a little more fair and rational to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and simply suggest they go look at some revolvers, and not accuse him of something we can't verify?
p.s. i have a couple female buddies that can rack a slide with the best of 'em !! :neener:
 
I wrote a dissertation, but it made no sense and was rambling so I will just say this.

We need to have an open mind for bringing newbies into the sport. We need to do a better job just getting people out to the range to have FUN!

.22LR, a single six and a Marlin 39. I have had friends go from anti to "let's go again" about five minutes AFTER shooting for a couple hours.

Open ended "best gun for wife" or "best gun for newb" or "best gun for Stephen Hawking" are just silly threads. I see three categories and none of them need any input from the internet.

1) What bedside gun for someone who probably won't practice and won't carry? Just get a .38. It has been the answer for the last 100 years. Did you need to start another pointless thread? They don't care, they just want something that goes bang. They probably don't even want the bedside gun, but it is being "encouraged".

2) Want to get [insert xx person] into shooting, what should I buy? Buy a .22LR. Buy one you want. If the new person doesn't like shooting you are stuck with a gun. If they are into shooting after some blasting on the .22, they'll do their own research and buy their own gun. Or they'll ask you your opinion, go to the store and try out the top 3.

3) Best gun for [insert xx person] to carry? Would you buy a gun I picked out for you to carry and depend on for your life? Take person xx to the store, let them try out a bunch of guns, buy and go home. Your only input should be what is true junk. And if a 100% SIG P210 is what fits best and shoots best...well there are worse things to trust your life too.
 
But you know what, Mil-Dot..I don't even much like revolvers. I'm not a huge fan of handguns in general, for shooting purposes, but if I do, I want a decent semi-auto. I own a 1/2 dozen of them. So how come about every other time I wander into a gun shop or gun show, and stop and look at something, someone suggests I look at a revolver? and that's if I'm in there alone. If I go with one of my buddies, odds are the guy (almost always a guy) at the counter won't even talk to me.

Me and one friend were at Cabelas a year ago and I was looking at the Bushmasters a couple years ago, and the counter guy looked around me (I mean, had to go out of his way to go around me) to ask the guy what he could help him with. Gary just laughed at him and said he wasn't looking for anything, he was just here with me. I told the guy I had been looking at the AR's but I'd buy one someplace that was interested in selling them. And I left.

Last year me and another buddy dropped by Walmart so I could pick up a doe tag on our way out hunting and the bonehead behind the counter REFUSED to talk to me. Kept asking him what district I needed, etc. Even after I pointedly asked him what his problem was, he looked at me, turned his head, and directed the question to my buddy again (and of course my friend is enough of a bonehead that he was egging the guy on, heh.) If there had been anyplace else to get a permit that morning, I'd have walked out, but unfortunately, there wasn't.

The thing is, I'm hardly afraid to speak my mind. But many women won't. So what happens to them? They get run over, and frankly, many of them leave and never come back.
 
Barbara, if I had a dollar for every guy who's done that.....

I'm fortunate in that my husband takes evil delight in pointing to me and saying, "don't talk to me, SHE'S the one who wants the gun". I have occasionally turned away and refused to deal with somebody in that situation, but most of the time the guys are embarassed, apologize, and we end up having a good conversation about what I'm looking at. Not always, but usually. As for a clerk who ignored me, the next step is to go get the manager and complain. Right then and there.

My personal pet peeve on the boards (apart from the "guns for girlfriend" threads :banghead:) are the threads in which it is apparently accepted to spout abusive bitterness about one's ex(es). Frankly, I'm sure the pain is the rightful fruit of sorrowful experience, but I'm WAY past tired of reading about it. You don't want to know about my past love life. I don't really want to know about yours. If we did, we'd be on a chat room with that as the topic, not a gun forum. Gag me.

I'd personally like to call for a HALT to the use of the word B**** in any and all of its permutations on this board. Period. Likewise p***y and its variants. This is the high road, not the middle school playground. If you can't think of a High Road way to say it, maybe, just maybe, it doesn't need to be said here.

My overinflated $.02.

Springmom
 
Well, I can only speak for myself, but I have 0 problems with female shooters. As a matter of fact, when I first started getting back involved in shooting after a long time off, one of the people that most affected my thinking on firearm safety was Pax from the cornered cat. When I take out new shooters, I have taken out female friends a few times.

My wife was very anti and is now recovering :). And I have legitimitely asked what would be a good gun for her because she physically CANNOT rack the slide on my Beretta, and it is too big for her hand. It happened to be the real criteria for my situation and folks around here know a whole lot more than me. It's not that my wife is incapable, it's just that I don't want her to be frustrated as it has taken a long 9 years to getting her to come around on that 'whole gun thing'. Anyways, I'm glad for all the folks here (well at least the NICE ones) and this is a great place to learn.
 
barbara, once again, i am not denying sexism exists, in the gun world or anywhere else. i don't doubt that the experiences you just described happened as you say, nor do i deny that they are unfair. also,i wholeheartedly approve of more women (more everyone) taking advantage of our 2nd ammendment rights. OK?
the point i was simply trying to make was that ( i felt ) that some folks were too quick to judge someone as "sexist" because they didn't exactly like their tone or how they phrased something. the guy at the counter that spoke with your friend while not talking to you quite likely sees couples on a regular basis, and for better or for worse, the vast majority are going to be a gun buying male and an un- interested female being dragged along for the ride.
as i said earlier, regardless of why, this is still the reality, one that he likely sees on a regular basis. he's just a working guy manning the counter, calling them as he (usually) sees 'em. doesn't neccessarily make him a sexist heathen.
but once again, if someone is truly treating you like a 2nd class customer or ignoring you entirely because you're female, i'd be angry right along side you. i'm hoping you see the distinction i'm trying to make. still friends?:D
 
Ironically, it was my wife who got ME into guns. I had hunted as a youth but fell out of the hobby when my parents got divorced. I even had a few rifles of my own that were sold in the process.

I didn't think much about guns during the 7 years that followed.

My wife and I went shooting a few times while we dated and I really took to it like a fish to water. We even bought each other guns at one point. I got her a ruger semiauto and she got me a Para Ordnance P13.

She loves to shoot but doesn't really enjoy reading gun forums all that much.
 
Ironically, it was my wife who got ME into guns.

My wife got me into Football. She has created a monster...

Back OT

Everyone on THR should take a lady out shooting this week. That goes for male and female members of the board. Maybe your wife and her sister, your daughter and a friend, your mom, an aunt...you get the idea.

As I have said the quickest way to make someone not be completely anti is a .22. Reactive targets are best but punching holes in paper is always fun.

Remember that the most zealous people are the recently converted.

Have fun shooting!
 
Yes yes yes. And if we know anything about demographics and passing liberty on we need to see "The American Rifleman" in a spanish edition, now.
 
I suspect a lot of us recommend a revolver regardless of gender. It's the way I learned, and I think it's a good path. .22 first, then a .357 revolver. First with .38's, then .357's. It's a good way to learn to deal with different trigger pulls, and is a nice steady progression up the recoil scale, not to mention the ease of operation.

That being said, there is way too much condescenion towards women at the shops/shows.
 
WheelGunMom said:
My take is that many on this board aren't "anti-female" per se, but they really aren't very interested in reading the female shooter's perspective.

That is inherently sexist.

Sexist: "is commonly considered to be discrimination....but it can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals." (1)

In order for there to be a "female... perspective" then there must be an inherent difference between females and males. While it imay be assumed this is due to a cultural bias, the hanging onto a "female perspective" merely perpetuates sexism. There should be no "female perspective" nor male, merely "shooter's"

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
 
I wish my wife was more into firearms!

I'm a firm believer in the user of the firearm should be the one to pick the gun. That's why we have a Beretta Tomcat. It's a nice little gun, but not one I would have picked for myself (although It's grown on me and I do carry it now and then).

Wifey has no problem with me carrying, but I can't seem to get her interested (nope, she refuses to go to the range).

Any thoughts, Lady Gunfighters?
 
Personally?

I don't much like shooting handguns. It's not fun. I did it because I thought I should, but as it turns out, I like rifles, and even shotguns, better.

I also hate standing on a line shooting at a paper target. Boorrrrinnnngggg!

See if she'd be interested in joining a trap league or take her to a CAS event.
 
Perspective

In order for there to be a "female... perspective" then there must be an inherent difference between females and males.
Well, you see, there are some.

One "inherent difference" plays a part in the role females generally play in rape scenarios. Another "inherent difference" is involved in child bearing. Then there are obvious physical shape and size differences.

Those are differences that simply can't be talked away.

The mistake is to believe that the obvious inherent differences somehow translate to into differences in skill and intellect.

Many generations of men have fully appreciated that the skill and intellect of women is entirely equal to that of men. This appreciation, in some cases, led to a concerted effort to deny literacy and access to women -- not because they couldn't compete in areas of skill and intellect -- but because they could.

Many generations of women have developed various subtleties and subterfuges to allow them to cope with their physically restricted situations. Much of this has had to take place in secret. Oftentimes men have decided that, because women had to use covert channels, that women must be conniving and evil.

Some men appreciated the irony of this. Others invented witches.

True civilization occurs only when men can permit themselves to cease the physical restraint of women and allow them to achieve whatever their skills and intellect can attain.

The irony? Men NEED women. In multiple senses.

"Women! Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em."

And so it was.

No, I don't have the historic insight to see back to the place and time where men decided women were a threat to their leadership. There's evidence enough of this in the present day.

Look, ladies, there are a lot of scared men out there. They need help to get past the cultural crap they've inherited.

On the other hand, there are men like those my parents raised, and many others like them. Quite a few, actually.

If I can achieve the insight to know what women are up against, and help them where I can, perhaps the women can cut some of the guys a break, too.

Some day I'll describe for you, in detail, what my wife does for a living. I don't know a handful of guys who could keep up.

Still, in spite of the fact that she can beat me at cards, Scrabble, and that code cracker game with the colored pegs -- and beat me consistently -- I am still the guy who has the job of Family Protector.

It's a role on which we've agreed.

Are we our own worst enemies?

Actually, no. We have real people with real plans and real funding who really want us gone. THEY are our true and worst enemies.

We often help them out more than we should. Sometimes that's just because we get bored and take our eye off the mountain.

It's good to have a guy out in front who carries the flag and who reminds us from time to time where the mountain is and that it's our objective to reach it.

Oleg carries the flag, and some of us step up and help him.

Remember the vision and the goal and keep that firmly out there over your "front sight" and there will be a whole lot less over which to squabble.

I want my lady at my side when the shooting starts.

And I want to know she shoots as well as I do.

Better, if I can manage it.
 
Personally, my wife carries a semi-auto and I carry a revolver. Why do I carry a revolver? Because they are simple and easy to use. My wife chooses the semi-auto. Why? Because that is what she wants to carry.
My wife and my daughter, who is a probation officer, both carry. Both are proficient with a gun. Do I tell them what to carry? Obviously not.
If someone, man or woman, asks my opinion about what to carry, I tell them that is personal but I personally carry a J frame revolver. It's what I like. You carry what you like regardless of your gender.
Another thing, I have a wife, daughter, granddaughter and mother. Derogatory remarks about women is something I don't appreciate.
My wife is a CHARTER member of NRA and SAS ( Second Amendment Sisters) which is one of the fastest growing pro-gun rights groups in America.
When I am at the range I do not offer free advice to a man or a woman unless I am ask. No person died and tagged me a pro because of my gender.
We are all shooters and gun owners and that is all that matters.
Ladies and gentlemen......shoot and have fun. Protect yourselves and your families.
 
In my years of coming here, I've been pleasantly surprised to see that women are generally respected not just for their presence, but for their opinions and experience. Sure, there are always a few backwards creatures, but in general, I find the posters to be pretty progressive. Same with gays and racial minorities.

Are we creating a bigger problem than really exists?
 
Women are a very large voting block. If more women were interested in shooting there would be less of a chance of the anti group getting their wish.

I have noticed over the past few years that when you have 4 new shooters, 2 male and 2 female, the female shooters will shoot better than the male shooters first time out. My guess is, when you explain the way a gun works, how to fire it and how to hit what you are aiming at, the women actually listen to what is being said while the men think they know everything about shooting because they watch movies about guns!! LOL
 
Mill Dot,

We must be coming from two completely divergent experiences. I work a gun counter here (manage a small LEO & CWP focused shop). Used to own my own shop. Competed in most disciplines. Basically I’ve been in the shooting game for more years than a lot of the members of this board have been in long pants. Doesn’t make me an expert on anything, but it does give me mileage enough to have seen a bit and formed a few reasonably well-informed conclusions.

I can’t recall ever seeing a “gun buying male and an un-interested female being dragged along for the ride” that wasn’t instantly recognizable as such. Indeed, more often than not I’ve found the couple to consist of either a woman looking to buy who brings a male along to make incursion into foreign and likely hostile (and yes – sexist) territory less intimidating, or a couple together seeking either a solution to their (or her) protective needs or just seeing what’s new.

Often the guy is pleased that we focus primarily on the real customers (her) needs, and wants. Occasionally we’ve seen the tag-along guy do everything he can to prove his own ignorance, but thankfully that’s fairly rare here.

It’s easy to see who the customer is if we don’t let bias blind us. Whether we recognize it as such or not - assuming the woman is a tag-along is indeed sexism and bias.

Then again maybe I’m biased, but I’ve often found women to be far better customers then men, and when it comes to training there’s no question – give me a class full of rookie women over a handful of newbie guys any day. At least they’re there to learn.

Anyone in our shop that gives a customer Barbara or Springmoms all too common experience would either get a radical attitude adjustment or a rather abrupt career change. I won’t stand for such on my watch. Never have, never will.
 
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Well, Barbara, If you weren't in MI then I would tell you to come to the shop where I work, you won't be treated second class there. I find women with guns to be incredibly sexy. When I and my wife started dating, and she found out about my guns and that I carried, she said she didn't like guns. I told her that I had guns before we met, and if she left, I would have guns after she was gone, so she needed to make a choice before she got too involved, because the guns weren't going away. It took 9 months or so, but I finally got her to the range. Started her out with a .22 to get in the basics and she worked her way up. I gotta watch her or she'll take my 1911s. She got a GP100 .357 because she wanted it. She picked it out and purchased it herself. She picked out and purchased her CZ-75. When men ask about a gun for their wife/girlfriend I tell them to bring them to the store to choose, he can't choose for her. I'll ask him, "You don't buy her shoes, do you? A gun is like your clothes, if it doesn't fit or you don't like it, it will just sit in the closet and collect dust." I also have found that new women shooters tend to shoot better than new men shooters, after that it's up to the individual where they take it. While men and women differ, women are better than men at some things and not as good at others, one of the reasons the two go together, we fill in each others gaps. There are exceptions, of course. Neither is inferior to the other, just different. There are many ways to rack a slide, I can find one that most women can use if they aren't quite up to the "normal" method. I've seen men who couldn't rack a slide in the "normal" method. I only recommend revolvers for simplicity, to both men and women, but if either wants an auto, I will find a way for them to use what they want. Since women don't have such high levels of testosterone, when someone is explaining how to operate the weapon or to shoot, they are listening and taking it in instead of trying to look all "manly" and like they know what they are doing, so at shooting time they are applying what they learned instead of trying to figure it out. Men could learn something here. Plus, like I said, a female shooter is just plain sexy. My wife shooting my FAL at 200 yds., it was almost too much. I asked her if she wanted an AR-15 and she said no I want an FAL just like yours. MMMMmmmmmmm. God, I love that woman.
 
Well, Barbara, If you weren't in MI then I would tell you to come to the shop where I work, you won't be treated second class there. I find women with guns to be incredibly sexy.

Gunfixr,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but ...

When you say women "won't be treated second class" in your gun store, do you mean you won't let them notice you're drooling all over the counter?

I don't want the guy behind the counter ogling me, or ignoring me, or condescending to me, or even to roll out the red carpet for me.

I just want him to sell me a gun.

pax
 
Come over to this side of the country Pax. Our carpets are old and brown. We try to treat everyone well. And if anyone drools you have the houses permission to commence slapping (although our young woman staffer might just beat you to it!).
 
heh... I've seen Spoon get ignored more than once. Of course, she's the quiet retiring type, who won't stand up and say anything for herself...

And anybody who believes that, I gots some bridges fer ya. Monkeyleg and Bedlamite can attest to Spoon's attitude (I've watched her verbally "draw down" on clerks)...
 
more knuckles dragging in the anti-gun movement than in a Geico commercial

That 's disparaging to cavemen.

Knowing five women at least who successfully defended themselves
or others with guns, I find it hard to see how the anti-gunners can
advise women it is best to give the attacker what they want.

Most pro-gun people I know personally respect and revere women.
 
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