Are You A COMBAT SHOOTER or TARGET SHOOTER ???

Status
Not open for further replies.
And there is a difference between the techniques used in training a large group of people to a certain (typically minimum) level of proficiency with limited amounts of time and ammo for sustainment training and the individual shooter going beyond that minimum technique to gain greater speed and accuracy than that technique is designed to teach.

So Fairbairn's (or any other military/police) method should not be viewed as the "end all be all" but rather a great minimum starting point or benchmark for greater individual accomplishment.
 
ragged hole center mass wasn't a good thing because "you want to make new wound channels."
Click to expand...

That's almost verbatim what I was told by my academy instructors in CA. My reply at the time was to ask, "If the agressor has a ragged hole you can see daylight through, isn't that a good thing?"

That said, I'm far from being a "target shooter", mainly because I haven't been to the range often enough in the past year to hit much past 10 yards. But, now that I've found a good gravel pit, that should change.
 
At LFI-I, I (and most of the class) was panic-stricken about the final exam: a course of fire with time limits and a minimum acceptable score.

By LFI-IV, we were doing the same course of fire at more than 4x original speed with confidence (at rates exceeding 6 shots in 2 seconds at times).
 
ctdonath ~

That's the point.

You want to hit the target fast and accurately.

Trash-talking accuracy for the sake of speed won't do it (you cannot miss your opponent fast enough to win a gunfight).

Trash-talking speed won't do it (you cannot aim a duck to death).

Gotta have both.

pax
 
I've been a bullseye target shooter three decades and longer. I don't doubt I'm able to defend my life and property
Click to expand...

Is there anyone on here who doubts he could defend himself? Probably not, which is bad because I would bet a fair number of people could not, and I might count myself among them.
A while back someone posed the question, at what point would you feel incapable of carrying a gun? Most people responding basically said that as long as they had functional arms (the kind with elbows and hands attached) they would carry. I think people tend to vastly overrate their abilities. That said, from the cases of people actually using guns to defend themselves, acute skill doesnt seem to be a deciding factor.
 
There are police firearms instructors, and then there are those who claim to be firearms instructors.

My first police firearms "instructor" in the reserve academy claimed that the reason the M-16 was so deadly was that the bullet tumbled in flight. When I asked him how the bullet got to the target accurately he didn't have an answer.

Pilgrim
 
I shoot centerfire benchrest. Droppin' the first round on the target, and four more right on top of 'em. But that's with the target rifles. I still remember how to walk fire with a semi-auto...

I can also dump two 8 round magazines out of a 1911A1, with a change, into two seven yard targets, alternating shots, with pie-plate center-mass groups, inside of 10 seconds. And that's not using a "race" gun. That's also with dropping and picking up a stopwatch.

A single target goes a LOT faster.

Just punch the weapon toward the target, watch the front sight, hang onto it with your left hand, and start yankin'.

And you know what? Last year I was aiming, and shooting slowly, and it took about a half a case of Wolf .45 to break that.

Now, without "aiming," I can consistently hit bowling-pin size targets at 15-20 yards. Granted, I'm looking, but I'm not worrying about being all that precise, and I'm not worrying about perfection of technique. Of course, I've put a few cases of Wolf down the pipe too...

Thanks, John...
 
I have to agree with esldude. If you can get a tight group even while firing at exactly the same rate as others, you're doing fine, and the instructor is full of it. Accurate and fast is about as good as you can get. The only time I've ever heard people want less accuracy is with light machine guns (to suppress an area).
 
But you can get too hung up on accuracy.

Practice makes perfect. And I'm happy with a dispersed group on a combat target. My goal is to dump the mags as fast as possible, with all the rounds hitting in the circles. Any slower is bad, any misses is bad.

It's synergistic.

Besides, I also agree with the school that says that multiple .45 holes through multiple lungs is better than one 1.00 hole through a single lung. I want knockdown, no breathing, no getting up, no chasing my fat butt down.

8 shots in 5 seconds in a 6" group center mass is better than three shots in 10 seconds in a 2" group.
 
At any distance if you can't keep all your shots in an 8" circle, you are going too fast, and if all your shots are in a 2" group, you're going to slow.

Simple philosophy, but it's true.
 
Interesting, but there's another thread here where a guy confronted a burglar in his house and shot him in the arm, but was in trouble with the law. One of the complaints against him was his 'reckless' discharging of a revolver. IE they couldn't find one bullet.

If you dump 12 bullets and get 3 hits I don't see any way around it except the media and the city council and the police chief will all get together in a big love-in press conference and say "See!? Citizens shouldn't own firearms, they are irresponsible." And then that same instructor who taught you how to rapidly fire so well, he'll be interviewed saying how you just don't have the skillls the police do, how you're not trained for the situation, etc etc.

It's a trick, there is no Grand Pooba to listen to, Fairbanks was right and he was wrong. Fighting the Orange gang or the Green gang is one thing, but he's no god. His fighting knife was not perfect, it broke too easily, and the chances are that his theories aren't perfect.

Especially when there's a blood-thirsty pack of animals known as police politicians and media that are salivating when they think about a citizen discharging their firearm in the manner the police instructor in question advocated.

It's a trap!

just an opinion.
 
Okay, yes, I agree that it's probably more useful to put a second hole somewhere else, rather than send another bullet through the exact same hole you just shot a split second ago.

But if you think that in the heat of battle, you're going to be able to send two shots through the exact same hole, at the exact same trajectory, on a living, moving, running, cursing, screaming human being ... well, I want some of whatever you've been smoking, that's all.

It ain't ever ever going to happen anyway, so it's a bogus worry. Practice fast and accurate, both.

pax
 
"Damnit!"

"What, did you miss?"

"No, I think I keep putting the bullets through the same hole. Look at this target."
 
I've seen some droll rationalizations for poor shooting skills, but this one's always my favorite. :)

When I drive one outside of the "A" zone, I don't think "Well, I'm a COMBAT SHOOTER," I think "Dammit, I can't miss fast enough to win; I need more practice," and when I gutterball the target completely, I don't think "Well, that bystander probably had it coming, anyway..." :uhoh:

"Well, Mrs. Rabinowitcz, I'm sorry about your husband being downrange and all, but Fairbairn told me a 50% hit ratio was plenty good enough, so I stopped practicing." :eek:
 
DId the people that got the "attaboy" shoot the random patterns on purpose or was it sloppy shooting?

If I can put all my shots in a single hole of my choosing, I'm less likely to miss than if my pattern is all over the place.

FFT

Smoke
 
Pax has it. Same hole accuracy is a pipe dream in a self defense combat encounter. I can appreciate balancing accuracy and speed. I would term it more as Effective Fire. Accurate fire at a reasonable speed is what I would work for, not the other way around.

Another Question: Does it really make sense to teach people to empty their magazine at a bad guy as fast as they can? In most self defense situations, how much ammo is the average person carrying? Should you assume the person you see is the only one there is? I think the average person will fire faster under stress and less accurately than normal. If they empty their mag and are ineffective, they are screwed. If more than one assailant, a novice shooter with this training could get really screwed especially if they can't get their targets straight and spray at everyone at the same time. Do they still just teach a double tap?

IMHO, I don't think 7 yards is very far at all. You ought to be able to hit a man size target at 7 yards firing from the hip. Firing without detail aiming is a good skill to play with every now and then.

IMHO, If you can learn to shoot a 6 or 8 inch group at 20 yards, hitting a target at 7 yards becomes easy even at speed.

One other thing: In a nighttime encounter or in a dark room, if you spray all your ammo at an opponent, I don't see how you will be able to see the target to maintain your aiming point. You could waste all your ammo and find the guy moved to the left and you couldn't see. I guess that depends on the gun.
 
As a couple of other responders implied, the instructor needs to spend some time in IPSC, ICORE or IDPA. Tell one of the competitors that putting 2 shots in the A zone on an assortment of targets in a fraction of a second each that they are incompetent.

May not be able to target shoot in real life situations, but doing it well in competition and practice will get you closer to perfect in real life situations than slacking off because 'it can't be done'.
 
What's the difference?

If you can put a round in a flea's @ss at 200 meters, that's good...
If you can empty a 30 round mag in less than 3 seconds, that's good.
When you can do both at the same time, that's great...
When you decide you don't need anymore training, that's just plain stupid!

My training started when I was a young lad and my father said:
"Shooting is easy, you just line up your sights and squeeze the trigger."
I've been perfecting that technique for over thirty years...
I've never had any more formal training than what was offered by an ex-military rangemaster at boy scout camp. He scored us by covering the largest grouping on your target with a clear plastic overlay that had a bullseye on it...
Not many kids went home without their marksmanship merit badge...
One fine summer day he told me all I ever needed to know about combat versus target shooting...
"In sport shooting you use various poses, targets, and types of weapons to hone skills or simply for pleasure and enjoyment of a great sport.
In combat, you shoot quick at the center of mass because the target will not wait for you to get a nice sight picture on it and will certainly be firing back at you if you miss with the first shot. Always remember to find adequate cover before you engage."

My 2 cents worth is this:
What do you have guns for?
Are they merely sporting equipment or do you keep and bear arms?
If the only living targets you intend to shoot are furry and live in the woods then combat shooting won't be high on your list...
If you own a gun to protect you and your family, it should only be one part of an extensive array of home security items...
You don't have to be "Hollywood lucky" to survive combat...
From what I understand on the subject, most people that have actually been in combat (I use the term loosely and consider any conflict where two or more people are engaged in firing guns at each other as combat) say that it is only because they didn't panic that they made it through...

You really wanna practice combat techniques?
Buy a pair of BB guns and find a friend crazy enough to try shooting you while you try shooting him... Just don't shoot your eyes out, Ralphie...
Paintball works real well too but isn't as realistic...
I doubt training centers for us civvies will include the M.I.L.E.S. gear any time soon, so it'll be hard to get "realism" for real...

The closest thing to a combat routine for pistol that I do is jogging in place, 20 push-ups and 20 sit-ups (anything that gets your blood racing, breathing rapid, and starts beads of sweat rolling into your eyes) then finding a realistic shooting position (taking cover behind something while mock-dialing 911) and firing at a 12 ounce soda can. If you can hit that at 3 feet out to 30 feet in under 3 seconds with deliberate yet thoroughly safe engagement of said target, that's good enough for home defense.

You want practical experience?
Have an assistant "attack" you while you draw out and engage "attacker" with a watergun from your preferred carry position.

jim
 
Yeah, except that approach was first innovated by Col Fairbairn in Shooting To Live. I wouldnt be too quick to dismiss it.
Click to expand...

Didn't Col. Fairbairn also advise shooting from the hip?
 
Point shooting works - if you practice enough.

As for dumping the mag, that's why they make magazines. You can change 'em fast.

If I'm shooting at a bad guy, I'm doing it for one reason - to stop him. In that case, a faster incapacitation is better.

Practice, practice, practice, shoot fast, shoot often.

And shoot accurately.
 
Train as you fight

Firing the whole magazine as fast as you can is a shooting drill. I believe it is called a "Bill Drill" It teaches you many things about shooting. It isn't nessessarily what you plan on doing if you are involved in a shooting
Click to expand...

While I understand that not all drills are reality based, I'm also familiar with the old adage "Train as you fight because when TSHTF you will fight as you train."

It seems to me that if you're practicing for CQC it would be better to practice putting 2 in the chest and 1 in the head, rather than emptying a whole magazine into the guys chest (and possibly into the poor guy standing behind him.)

Speed and accuracy, in all things there must be balance.
 
Ideally, I would choose combat shooting with target accuracy. I think depts. are making a mistake not emphasizing more percision shooting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Coaching problem shooters
Replies
11
Views
1K
Dentite
D
D
  • Locked
shooting diagnosis target ?
Replies
5
Views
550
dghboy315
D
Mars5l
  • Locked
Funner paper targets?
2
Replies
47
Views
2K
jmorris
jmorris
F
  • Locked
Target-shooter loses appeal to keep guns (Ireland)
Replies
10
Views
704
svaz
S
P
  • Locked
Bridport man shot in backyard by target shooter
Replies
6
Views
778
Art Eatman
A
Back
Top