Are you in favor of repealing the NFA and Hughe's Amendment?

[WardenWolf]

While I believe the Hughes Amendment should be repealed, along with the vast majority of the NFA, I believe there should remain some restrictions on machine guns. Let's face it: machine guns can do a LOT of damage very quickly, especially in the hands of someone who knows how to use one halfway correctly (and believe it or not, modern video games get it very right, in that you have to use controlled bursts; your average kid nowadays could quickly adjust to the real thing). These things need to be tracked and their owners background-checked.

 

[mnrivrat]

NFA , 1968 Gun Control Act ,& Hughes are all unconstitional .

 

[dogrunner]

I dunno, Warden. Universal enfranchisement can and has done more damage than could have EVER been so accomplished if the original NFA had never seen the light of day.

At what point do we accept the security of patently unconstitutional acts in the guise of necessity? Hell, if the logic you propose is proper, then we OUGHT to severely limit freedom of speech, religion and association. After all, there is damned little more dangerous than a free press!

 

[AlexanderA]

WardenWolf wrote:

While I believe the Hughes Amendment should be repealed, along with the vast majority of the NFA, I believe there should remain some restrictions on machine guns. Let's face it: machine guns can do a LOT of damage very quickly, especially in the hands of someone who knows how to use one halfway correctly (and believe it or not, modern video games get it very right, in that you have to use controlled bursts; your average kid nowadays could quickly adjust to the real thing). These things need to be tracked and their owners background-checked.

As an owner of machine guns, I have to say this: in most scenarios, machine guns are not particularly more deadly than their semiautomatic cousins (especially considering the rate at which they consume ammo). By your rationale, then, semiautomatics should be controlled like machine guns. In an ideal world, I'd rather that neither be controlled.

 

[mortablunt]

What's with all the hate. Warden doesn't want absolutely free proliferation of automatic weapons. It's not like he's got an anti gun agenda.

 

[jmorris]

Yes, and I would be the first guy on my block to have a form 1, 50 bmg minigun. Oh, and a bunch of other stuff.

 

[jmorris]

By wardenwolfs account, shotguns should be controled too.

Further, if hughes was gone machineguns would remain NFA devices ("controled").

 

[S.W.G.]

Would you like to see a repeal of the Hughes Amendment?

Absolutely!

Would you like to see a repeal of the entire NFA?

No. But hear me out.

I think we should deregulate SBR's, SBS's, Suppressors, and redefine AOW's to exclude handguns and shotguns with a fore grip.

We should also simplify the licensing and registration aspects of it. No more Class III's licenses or the like. If you have been deemed trustworthy enoughy to sell Title I items, you should be able to deal in any kind of firearm.

Only two types of Forms. A Form 1 to manufacture, a Form 2 to possess.

Add all Post Sample NFA items are moved the general registry, and repeal the section of the 1968 GCA that bans importation of Title II items for civilian consumption.

Destroy all records related to the now-deregulated SBR's, SBS's, Suppressors, and pistols with fore grips.

I disagree with a full repeal of the NFA because that would be completely impractical from a political standpoint. We've won when it comes to 'assault weapons', but I cant see the public embracing Title 1 hand grenades or completely deregulated machine guns.

Just re-opening the MG registry would make me ecstatic.

 

[dovedescending]

I would love to see the restrictions on SBR/SBS/AOW/suppressors done away with. But when it comes to FA, I don't much care about the $200 stamp. If we could just get the registry reopened, I would be content.

 

[AlexanderA]

jmorris wrote:

By wardenwolfs account, shotguns should be controlled too.

Yes, that's what it boils down to, when you consider that a single 00 buckshot blast is equivalent to a 9-shot burst from a 9mm submachine gun. This tells me that, for use as weapons, submachine guns are overrated while shotguns are underrated.

 

[AlexanderA]

dovedescending wrote:

But when it comes to FA, I don't much care about the $200 stamp. If we could just get the registry reopened, I would be content.

How would you feel if the registry were reopened, but the $200 stamp were increased to, say, $2,000? Because that's a fairly likely scenario, and that's the problem with having a registry at all. The purpose of the registry, and the tax, from its beginnings in 1934, was to be practically prohibitory without saying so in terms. The "permissive era" of FA ownership, in the 70's and 80's (between the erosion of the tax through inflation and the slamming door of the Hughes amendment), was a historical anomaly.

 

[mboylan]

Carl N. Brown wrote:



Yes, exactly. But once Hughes had been added, it was a great mistake to go forward with FOPA. The tradeoff wasn't worth it -- the improvements regarding Title I firearms were marginal at best. And FOPA could have been re-introduced, and would have passed later. The NRA could have asked its supporters in Congress to pull the bill, or Reagan to veto it. This has to go down as a great strategic mistake on the part of the NRA. But I suppose the NRA was institutionally invested in FOPA, and inertia prevented them from reversing course at the last minute. Now, when are they going to try to undo the damage of Hughes?

The improvements from the FOPA were more than just marginal. Many shooters on this forum don't remember the days when all of your personal information was recorded for each handgun ammo purchas, when the sale of ammo through the mail was prohibited and when you could go to prison for driving through the wrong area with the wrong gun.

 

[Justin]

Speaking as someone who plays modern FPS video games and has some experience with shooting real full-auto guns, I have gto go on record as saying that warden wolf is incorrect.

Regardless of how "right" modern games have gotten, WRT the use of full-auto firearms, they still don't do much to prepare you for the real thing. There's a massive difference between hitting the trigger button on your XBOX 360 controller, and actually firing a fully automatic gun in real life.

If anything, the supposedly higher levels of realism in video games only goes to reinforce the delusion of many players who think that gaming translates to real-world experience.

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

 

[S.W.G.]

(and believe it or not, modern video games get it very right, in that you have to use controlled bursts; your average kid nowadays could quickly adjust to the real thing).

As a 'kid' who plays a lot of video games, I can tell you from first hand experience that it's not even close.

I have had the pleasure of firing three machine guns, an M2 Carbine, an HK SP89 with a sear pack, and an HK53 with the same sear pack.

Aside from the technical details like rate of fire and muzzle climb, (which video games never get right) there is the aspect of noise. That HK53 was loud enough that I had to get my bearings together after a few bursts. And that was just shooting off into a mound of dirt. A moving target? Not a chance.

The decade of video games may have helped me learn how to line up the front and rear sights, but that's about it.

They don't teach you trigger discipline, burst control, or the proper stance.

I'll say it again, not even close.

 

[mortablunt]

^ Same with just about any other gun and video games. Well, there is one other thing that a video game illustrated correctly. Metro 2033's AK will blind you if you go at it in full auto in the tunnels. The only thing a video game showed me how to do was ready the gun and aim down the sights

 

[P5 Guy]

How about we repeal the GCA 1934.
That's the infringement that started it all. It gave the ATF something to do after Prohibition got justly repealed.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Back to the original question...I do support repeal of the Hughes Amendment. I think it was illegally passed and should never have been included in the FOPA. On the other hand, I don't have a particular problem with the NFA except perhaps the additional tax, which was included to be punitive (at the time) and should have been declared unconstitutional.

I don't have a problem with controls on NFA firearms...or any others. My problem is that every time something hideous happens and involves a firearm, the immediate, knee-jerk reaction is to blame the firearm. The second amendment provides my right to keep and bear firearms; filling out a 4473 to get the firearm is just a formality. Having someone check my background to verify that I am not a 'prohibited person' makes a certain amount of sense. Back in January we had a nut case here who shot a number of people, some of whom died. The immediate response was "ban handguns" and "ban high-capacity (normally not well defined) magazines"! But the "alleged" shooter had illegally purchased the handgun because no records existed to document his insanity and the danger he presented to both society and himself. He could just as easily have driven a car into the crowd and gotten the same box score. So he should have been locked up as a threat to society in general; but we can't do that in this day and age.

Warden Wolf thinks the automatic weapons should be 'restricted'. They already are, but here in Arizona, if you can meet the legal requirements to own a handgun, you can own an automatic weapon. Don't need more restrictions than that. As I already said, I don't have a specific problem with the NFA and the registry. If my automatic weapon was stolen and showed up at a crime scene, I would like to think that the authorities could track it back to me and maybe even return it to me at some point. Again, the tax was originally created to make it nearly impossible for the common citizen to afford a legally procured firearm (and was supposed to have included handguns) and that is just the wrong use of governmental power. We could drop the tax and retain the registry as far as I am concerned.

It is nice to see that Justin and S.W.G. agree that FPS and real world shooting are not the same. With almost 43 years in uniform, I have a lot of experience with real automatic weapons and none with games. But I run into a lot of younger people who think that their marvelous scores on Call of Duty make them naturals for the three-gun matches out here. Makes me laugh...a lot. Even the real range doesn't give you real experience unless someone is shooting back at you. Makes all the difference in the world.

Just my two cents.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Yes, and I would be the first guy on my block to have a form 1, 50 bmg minigun. Oh, and a bunch of other stuff.

With a .50 BMG gatling gun, you'd fire one 2 second burst and then all your gun funds for that year are gone.

 

[Zach S]

You nay-sayers should do a little research on how many form 4 weapons have been used in crimes, and who used them...

 

[Justin]

It is nice to see that Justin and S.W.G. agree that FPS and real world shooting are not the same.

In general, FPS games have gotten better about some things, like driving home the fact that using the sights will actually increase your accuracy and some of the other basic mechanical functions of guns, like the need to fire in short bursts or reload once in awhile.

Certainly some FPS players will make the leap from the gaming world to the real world, and I certainly welcome them. If anything, video games have been a huge factor in the mainstreaming of gun ownership in the last decade, especially for EBRs and the like.

But the bottom line is that all FPS games, even the ones that are supposedly the most "realistic" are designed first and foremost to be fun, and realism is a distant second or third. On top of that, there's a whole universe's difference between running a real gun in a dynamic environment vs. using a controller to play a game.

Furthermore, as someone who avidly played FPS games starting with Wolfenstein 3D on a 386SX, up to the latest version of Modern Warfare, I can tell you that if all of the hours I've wasted on those games translated to actual real-world skill, I'd have placed near the top of the heap at some of the biggest 3 Gun matches in the country.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen, as being good with a gun means you have to actually put the time in with real guns in order to be good.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I'd be all for it as well. It's a perfect example of the government meddling in areas where they are strictly forbidden (2nd Amendment) and screwing up the supply side of the market.
Anyone who buys and sells MGs for profit rather than the joy of shooting them has no sympathy in my eyes. That's an incredibly risky investment and if they weren't prepared to loose it all when they got into it they should stay away from it.

but with the mayhem one MG can unleash, there ought to at least be some sort of control network for them.

Do the criminals abide by the controls that are in place? After seeing some demonstrations of a full auto "hosing down" targets versus controlled semi auto shooting I'm not too afraid of them.
If this were WWI and we were soldiers charging trenches it may be an issue.

 

[gyvel]

I think it would be appropriate to publicize the fact that the NFA of 34 and 35 (as well as the Sullivan Law) were largely ethnically biased laws. Specific mention was made by elected officials that the laws would be highly useful in keeping weapons out of the hands of the Italians and Irish.

 

[mortablunt]

And keeping them away from Blacks, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, and everyone who wasn't a WASP. Drug laws began on an ethnic basis too.

Speaking as someone who plays modern FPS video games and has some experience with shooting real full-auto guns, I have gto go on record as saying that warden wolf is incorrect.

Regardless of how "right" modern games have gotten, WRT the use of full-auto firearms, they still don't do much to prepare you for the real thing. There's a massive difference between hitting the trigger button on your XBOX 360 controller, and actually firing a fully automatic gun in real life.

If anything, the supposedly higher levels of realism in video games only goes to reinforce the delusion of many players who think that gaming translates to real-world experience.

Do you have a gamertag?

 

[Mike OTDP]

You sell the repeal as a tax increase. A $1,000 excise tax on the manufacture (not transfer) of a new MG. Soak those MG purchasers!

The fact that you just reopened the registry is a side-effect.

 

[Chemistry Guy]

In addition to automatic weapon restrictions, a lot of the NFA is obsolete. Limitations on barrel length, suppressors, foregrips, etc. were made in a different era. Current knowledge of hearing loss, the popularity of modular designs, interchangeability of pistol/rifle calibers etc. all show how the NFA laws are a mess. Politics are so tight right now that no one wants to take the risk and expend the political capital to open it back up for reevaluation, though.