Are you planning on buying or have you bought an IWI Tavor?
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briansmithwins
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Each one of which would be 6" longer than a Tavor...
Sure, ARs are cheaper, they ought to be. Everybody makes commodity parts for them and benifits from economies of scale.
But the Tavor and other rifle designs offer things that you can't get with any AR.
BSW
rodinal220
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What does the Tavor and "other" bullpups offer over the AR15/M16 platform other than reduced length(I understand longer barrel non-SBR),a lightened wallet and hopping on the "kool kid" Izzy mystic??
I seriously doubt we will see the Tavor sweep the action sports circuit unless its a stage gun or a IWI sponsored event.
Its just another re-packaged AR18 with a polymer skin. For the same ballpark money I can get two AR15 guns.
I seriously doubt we will see the Tavor sweep the action sports circuit unless its a stage gun or a IWI sponsored event.
Its just another re-packaged AR18 with a polymer skin. For the same ballpark money I can get two AR15 guns.
briansmithwins
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Let's see.
Long stroke gas piston, steel subframe, larger extractor, rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds), ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts), and increased reliability in harsh environments.
BSW
Ragsdale0509
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Compare the price of the Tavor to an SBR AR-15. No NFA paperwork is required with a Tavor and the barrel is 16.5" rather than 10".
Ragsdale0509
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In addition to what briansmithwins wrote, the Tavor can also be shot both left and right handed and use Magpul Pmags. The AUG cannot be shot both left and right handed. The FS2000 cannot use Magpul Pmags without modifing the rifle (and voiding the warranty.)
Geissele is in development of a trigger for the Tavor:
Geissele is in development of a trigger for the Tavor:
briansmithwins
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There is that, too. If I wanted .22 Magnum ballistics I'd buy a .22 Magnum, not blow $0.50 a pop .223 out a short barrel.
BSW
I am not a particular fan of bullpup rifles. They are loud, they eject from under your nose, and the triggers are numb and heavy. For my needs (okay, wants) a 16" barrel is plenty short. I am not doing forced entries in the Gaza strip. But the natural balance of the Tavor makes it quick on target, and it wards off shooter's fatigue. It also locks back on empty, something that the FS2000, to my surprise, won't do.
FrankCastleThePunisher
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Variety is spice of life. I'm pleased with my 18" Tavor with OAL of 27 & 5/8 inches.
rodinal220
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Long stroke gas piston:The AR platform is available in both a DI(legacy) and Piston(pick one) now.
Steel sub frame:The Forged AL upper/lower of the AR/M16 series has proven plenty durable.
Larger extractor:you gotta pay $2k for a bigger extractor??
Rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds):If you run quality bolts from Colt,BCM,DD they will last that long or longer.
Ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts):I admit the Tavor is "better" for lefties out of the box;the AR with the M16A2 left case deflect works,the charging handle is ambi.With aftermarket support more so.
And increased reliability in harsh environments:How so??
The AR/M16 program had some teething problems due to early deployment,kinda like the SA80/L85(still crap) due to politics,wrong propellant,no cleaning kits,poor training.The weapon has undergone some good PIPs and will continue to do so,albeit MUCH too slowly.
Colt for years has tried to upgrade the platform but the military powers do not accept everything.Colt had a piston gun 40 years ago,long before the HK416(me likee) or aftermarket stuff(mid 1980s) like the RHINO system.
If properly maintained the AR/M16 platform is very reliable. If US military would have adopted HK416 type improvements it would even be further refined.
Not trying to dis the Tavor.The ones I handled and shot at SHOT seemed well made and interesting,but bullpups haven't proven to be the "next generation" The Izzys will continue to field large quantities(free US $$$) of M16 based guns for years to come.
FAMAS:
SA80/L85:
FS2000: how much for an even more plastic gun???That lil poop chute ejection "port" has me concerned.Clumsy handling.
AUG:kinda like this one,ahead of its time. The true quick change barrel is most useful.A3 platform better.Could use further PIPs.Still expensive for a poly gun.
Steel sub frame:The Forged AL upper/lower of the AR/M16 series has proven plenty durable.
Larger extractor:you gotta pay $2k for a bigger extractor??
Rugged bolt (that won't break ever 10-15k rounds):If you run quality bolts from Colt,BCM,DD they will last that long or longer.
Ability to be converted for left handed use (w/o using aftermarket parts):I admit the Tavor is "better" for lefties out of the box;the AR with the M16A2 left case deflect works,the charging handle is ambi.With aftermarket support more so.
And increased reliability in harsh environments:How so??
The AR/M16 program had some teething problems due to early deployment,kinda like the SA80/L85(still crap) due to politics,wrong propellant,no cleaning kits,poor training.The weapon has undergone some good PIPs and will continue to do so,albeit MUCH too slowly.
Colt for years has tried to upgrade the platform but the military powers do not accept everything.Colt had a piston gun 40 years ago,long before the HK416(me likee) or aftermarket stuff(mid 1980s) like the RHINO system.
If properly maintained the AR/M16 platform is very reliable. If US military would have adopted HK416 type improvements it would even be further refined.
Not trying to dis the Tavor.The ones I handled and shot at SHOT seemed well made and interesting,but bullpups haven't proven to be the "next generation" The Izzys will continue to field large quantities(free US $$$) of M16 based guns for years to come.
FAMAS:
SA80/L85:
FS2000: how much for an even more plastic gun???That lil poop chute ejection "port" has me concerned.Clumsy handling.
AUG:kinda like this one,ahead of its time. The true quick change barrel is most useful.A3 platform better.Could use further PIPs.Still expensive for a poly gun.
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FrankCastleThePunisher
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You might ask the Israeli Defense forces what they are good for.
I heard these were very effective against stone throwers. Basic SIG .556 (no iron sights) with side folding stock is about $1200 so why throw away $800?
CraigC
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I looked at one last week. Pretty cool but I wouldn't spend the coin for one. Then again, two or three black rifles are all I'll ever need.
briansmithwins
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I'm wondering if all the guys wrapped around the price point axle drive the absolute cheapest beater car they can afford?
The AR is like the Chevrolet Spark of guns.
BSW
The AR is like the Chevrolet Spark of guns.
BSW
briansmithwins
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Personally, I don't drive a Kia Rio and the AR isn't my favorite rifle. I'm willing to pay extra to get features (better ergonomics, more durability, more robust function) that ARs can't offer.
But don't try and sell me the Kia when I want a turbo diesel pickup.
BSW
But don't try and sell me the Kia when I want a turbo diesel pickup.
BSW
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Quick Shot xMLx
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While I agree that the rifle is probably priced too high at $2000($1500ish would be right) you guys are dismissing its benefits just from a price standpoint. The main thing this gun brings is that it's the size of an SBR AR with a full length barrel. That's something you'll NEVER get with an SBR AR for obvious reasons. You slap a suppressor on it and it's the same size as a regular AR with that full length barrel.
If you have no need for a shorter rifle then of course it seems like a gimmick. Frankly I'm a bit surprised at how hostile some people in this thread seem towards the Tavor and by association how defensive they are of the AR. Nobody is coming for your AR...well at least not Tavor owners
If you have no need for a shorter rifle then of course it seems like a gimmick. Frankly I'm a bit surprised at how hostile some people in this thread seem towards the Tavor and by association how defensive they are of the AR. Nobody is coming for your AR...well at least not Tavor owners
OilyPablo
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Exactly.
Why the hostility from some here? High Road? More like if it's new, it's NOT cool.
Is that why most of the special operations groups around the world seem to prefer the AR platform?
SAS...do they use the LA85 that the rest of the British Army uses?
Nope, they use Colt Canada C8
Grom, the Polish special forces, do they use the Beryl that the rest of the Polish Army uses?
Nope, they use M4s and HK 416s
Australian SAS, do they use the Steyr AUG that the rest of the Australian armed forces use?
Nope, they use the M4
I'd say the AR-15 is the Porsche 911 of guns, its been around since the 60's, its steadily been upgraded, and despite how old it is, it is still respected as one of the best tools for the job it was designed to do.
briansmithwins
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ARs are the Lego of the gun world. I suspect the reason SF types use them is the same reason why girls buy Barbie dolls. You start off with the same plastic girl but she has lots of options to dress her up with.
BSW
BSW
How many Tavor owners will put 10K rounds through their guns? How many AR owners do? Seriously. Also a spare bolt cost what, $70.
I own an AUG and a PS90. I have no per se aversion to bullpups. In fact, there is a lot I like about them. That said, at this point, if I was choosing between a Tavor and an AR for a go to gun I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get the AR, and that is irrespective of price. In fact my go to ARs are Noveskes. If I were going to buy one today without price as a factor I'd get a KAC.
That said, the Tavor may well be the best of the bullpups. But it still has many remaining bullpup issues. The recoil impulse and trigger (even the tweeked ones) are issues. The Tavor is also a pretty heavy gun. By the time you have it fully equipped it is going to be about 9 lbs.
I do not think you will see serious users moving in waves to the Tavor. If I was only going to have one 5.56 rifle I would not get a Tavor. If I really wanted a bullpup I'd give this one a look.
To answer the OP though. I personally do not plan to buy one at the current market prices. It doesn't do anything I can't do with other guns I have and it is not a gun that I really want to get just to have one.
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