Argument About switzerland

[wacki]

on digg w/ 500,000+ REGISTERED members
http://digg.com/politics/Something_that_gun_control_advocates_don_t_like_to_hear#c4570644

I'm pretty sure that regular inspections only apply to people who are in the service. Also, isn't ammo available at sporting goods stores? So isn't his argument based on facts that simply don't apply to civilians?

> Switzerland (guns = everywhere yet low crime)

Anti-gun control advocates in the United States often point to Switzerland as an example of a country that has high gun ownership and low violent crime rates to support the argument that tighter gun laws are not required. However there are structural and cultural reasons why such a comparison is not valid:

All Swiss males (who are of sound mind and body) are required to undergo a period of military training and period of service where they are instructed in the proper use of firearms. The same cannot be said of the USA.

After this military service, reservists or home guards are issued with a weapon by the government, and a supply (about 50 rounds) of ammunition, to be used in the event of war so that soldiers can defend themselves on their way to base. This ammunition is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unlawful use takes place. People who use the ammunition for other than its intended purpose are incarcerated. The same cannot be said of the USA.

While the sale of ammunition at firing ranges is subsidised by the Swiss government, it is a government requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there. The same cannot be said of the USA. Ammunition can also be purchased at a dealer, but is more tightly monitored.

Switzerland does not has the same rate of drug-related crime or urban deprivation as the USA, factors which exacerbate the impact of easy gun availability in such a society.

(Sadly however, the rate of gun suicide in Switzerland is quite high, with military weapons often used for this purpose.)

In other words, the context of gun laws in Swiss society is very different to that of the United States. Firearms in Switzerland are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility (ironically, like the intent behind the US's second amendment - a well regulated militia) rather than to a sense of individual free-for-all and power.

Therefore, the argument that "all the Swiss have guns and their violent crime rate is low, therefore the US doesn't have to have tight gun controls" is spurious

 

[thexrayboy]

The argument that fewer guns will mean fewer crimes is spurious also. Who gives a red rats backside about what the customs in Switzerland are. Good for them but how they run that country is their business. How we run ours is our business. Comparisons to another society is just smoke and mirrors.
Honest Americans need to stop trying to justify owning a firearm. It is our right. The antis need to be set back on their heels and be told to take a hike. If they don't like the Second Amendment and think that we need fewer guns in society I invite them to leave and make Great Britain their new home.

 

[K-Romulus]

yeah, that's a cut-n-paste

I've seen that before. It makes the rounds every now and then. How original.

Here is a good article/discussion debunking it: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ae771eb4adb.htm

Unofficial translation of the actual swiss law:
http://www.guncite.com/swiss_gun_law.html

This translation seemed legit when I ran the German language copy from the actual Swiss government website through Babelfish early last year. Here is the German copy on the Swiss gov. website: http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/c514_54.html

All that stuff about inspection is military-issue only.

Ammo is sold over the counter. Most Swiss gun laws mirrored the US (only get background check at purchase from store, no sales of guns or ammo to "prohibited people," no way to do checks on ammo purchasers, private sales OK, etc.)

I read that some of this changed over the past few months so that now all gun purchases must go through a dealer to get a background check. The change was implemented as part of some European Union travel treaty that allowed people with "firearms passports" to take their guns between countries.

 

[BullfrogKen]

wacki, if you're really curious about this kinda stuff, read The Samurai, The Mountie, and The Cowboy.

 

[wacki]

The Samurai, The Mountie, and The Cowboy

Just bought it. Thanks!

Man this freerepublic article differs a lot from the wikipedia text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Non-military ammunition for long-gun hunting and .22 Long Rifle (LR) ammo are not subsidized, but are subject to no sales controls. Non-military non-hunting ammunition more powerful than .22 LR (such as .38 Spl.) is registered at the time of sale.

No sales controls on hunting ammo? See that is not mentioned on wikipedia. Also, what exactly is the registration process?

Swiss military ammo must be registered if bought at a private store, but need not be registered if bought at a range The nation's 3,000 shooting ranges sell the overwhelming majority of ammunition. Technically, ammunition bought at the range must be used at the range, but the rule is barely known and almost never obeyed.

That part in bold is left out. People frequently use the "strict regulations" of ammo sales in anti-gun arguments.

 

[wacki]

Today, enlisted men are issued M57 automatic assault rifles and officers are given pistol, Each reservist is issued 24 rounds of ammunition in sealed packs for emergency use. (Contrary to Handgun Control's claim that "all ammunition must be accounted for," the emergency ammunition is the only ammo that requires accounting.)

Anyone have any more info on this? What exactly is emergency ammo and what isn't? I assume this is the ammo you keep at home. Does the military issue ammo for home keeping that isn't "emergency" ammo?

 

[Mr.V.]

The Texas Gun Owners Alliance article on Switzerland would have been much better if they had citations. I'm not at all implying that they are lying but such things require references if they are to be used in debate...

 

[wacki]

Young adults in Washington, D.C., are subject to strict gun control, but no social control, and they commit a staggering amount of armed crime. Young adults in Zurich are subject to minimal gun control, but strict social control, and they commit almost no crime.

What exactly do they mean by social control here?

 

[DesertShooter]

A friend of mine, after we had spent 13 months in combat (1967-1968) and a 2-year tour of duty in West Germany, liked Europe so much that he stayed there when he was discharged. He ended up becoming a citizen of Switzerland, and has been a Baptist Minister since the mid-1970's. Since he was not born in Switzerland, he was exempted from their military conscription, but the government DID screen him for it.

The full-time Swiss Army is VERY small, but they augment it with their reserve forces. All able bodied males ARE required to attend "X" amount of military training drills per year (I understand that the "X" amount depends upon certain criteria, such as military job classification, age, etc.). All reserve forces are issued weapons AND a sealed pack of "emergency" ammo (the last I heard, it was a 200-round plastic "battle pack" for issued rifles and 50-round sealed plastic box of pistol ammo). The "emergency" ammo is to be used ONLY in case of an invasion, and was deemed to be "enough" for each reserve to safely respond to their assigned duty station. The "emergency" ammo would be collected and used for training purposes annually, with fresh ammo issued after that).

Low crime rate in Switzerland? Well, YES! That's because it is VERY much a "police state"! It is also a totally "socialistic" country, with extremely high taxes to pay for just about everything, other than food and household goods.

Interesting to note that Switzerland does NOT have a death penalty OR life in prison without parole! The MAXIMUM sentence for ANY crime is 13 years! Their prison system avidly supports rehabilitation, rather than merely "incarceration", and relies heavily upon education AND spiritual guidance (My friend is one of the many Chaplains that visits the local prison). Oh, and "mentally disturbed" people run a BIG chance of being "hospitalized"....many for LIFE! Oh, and there is supposedly a VERY low amount of repeat offenders that go back to prison, so their rehabilitation programs must work!

 

[Oleg Volk]

Socialist? Yes, from what I read. So socialist that ex-Eastern Europe immigrants I know moved onto the US after a while.

Monocultural? Hardly, with three (or is it four) official languages!

 

[SDC]

Quote:
After this military service, reservists or home guards are issued with a weapon by the government, and a supply (about 50 rounds) of ammunition, to be used in the event of war so that soldiers can defend themselves on their way to base. This ammunition is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unlawful use takes place. People who use the ammunition for other than its intended purpose are incarcerated. The same cannot be said of the USA.

While the sale of ammunition at firing ranges is subsidised by the Swiss government, it is a government requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there.

This is the sort of argument that makes me laugh; this assumes that someone who would otherwise go on a murder spree is going to be deterred by the fact that he might get in trouble for not having his sealed ammunition present for inspection in six month's time, and that said "trouble" could be in ANY way, worse than the trouble he's going to get into for going on the murder spree in the first place.

 

[cbsbyte]

Low crime rate in Switzerland? Well, YES! That's because it is VERY much a "police state"!

And the US is not a Police state? I bet most American police/sheriff offices are much more para military than the Swiss Police. Heck many police forces in this country are very militristic, yet out crime rate is much higher than Switzerlands.
On a side note, why can't the US have a citizen military more like Switzerland's. When was the last time Switzerland was involved in a military conflict... oh thats right in the 1800s.

 

[Librarian]

Also try John McPhee's La Place de la Suisse Concorde It's dated - 1983, 1984 - but interesting, about McPhee's experience with the Swiss citizen-soldiers at the personal level.

 

[kludge]

Switzerland (guns = everywhere yet low crime)

Anti-gun control advocates in the United States often point to Switzerland as an example of a country that has high gun ownership and low violent crime rates to support the argument that tighter gun laws are not required. However there are structural and cultural reasons why such a comparison is not valid:

All Swiss males (who are of sound mind and body) are required to undergo a period of military training and period of service where they are instructed in the proper use of firearms. The same cannot be said of the USA.

All able bodies males are members of the militia, and this is the natural defense the Founders desired. And this is what should be happening, not enlisted men, but men who are trained and "well-regulated."

After this military service, reservists or home guards are issued with a weapon by the government, and a supply (about 50 rounds) of ammunition, to be used in the event of war so that soldiers can defend themselves on their way to base. This ammunition is sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unlawful use takes place. People who use the ammunition for other than its intended purpose are incarcerated. The same cannot be said of the USA.

Again this is what the founders intended; I wonder why congress doesn't fund the militia?

While the sale of ammunition at firing ranges is subsidised by the Swiss government, it is a government requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there. The same cannot be said of the USA. Ammunition can also be purchased at a dealer, but is more tightly monitored.

again why is this not funded?

Switzerland does not has the same rate of drug-related crime or urban deprivation as the USA, factors which exacerbate the impact of easy gun availability in such a society.

This could take pages, and is very controversial.

(Sadly however, the rate of gun suicide in Switzerland is quite high, with military weapons often used for this purpose.)

If your gonna do it your donna do it. Might as well take the less painful route.

In other words, the context of gun laws in Swiss society is very different to that of the United States. Firearms in Switzerland are strictly connected to a sense of collective responsibility (ironically, like the intent behind the US's second amendment - a well regulated militia) rather than to a sense of individual free-for-all and power.

As they are here to many of us, just becuase theautor isn't dosn't mean I'm not. Nice try on linking "collective responsibility" to "collective right." If America is not about individual free-for-all power, what is it about? Try to make that argument with any other right the ACLU is interested in defending.

Therefore, the argument that "all the Swiss have guns and their violent crime rate is low, therefore the US doesn't have to have tight gun controls" is spurious

I'm sure there are many other factors involved other than guns, but it's proof enough that "lot of guns" even MACHINE GUNS don't turn good people into criminals, which is why we use it.

 

[another okie]

"What exactly do they mean by social control here?"

The poster asked that in the context of someone saying that Swiss youth were subject to a great deal of social control.

It means they are constantly watched, corrected, and admonished by law-abiding older citizens. Almost every Swiss citizen is a sort of de facto police officer, watching everyone else to make sure they obey the laws and customs. Some Americans think of Switzerland as some sort of libertarian paradise, and this is definitely not true. I remember in one Swiss town there was a certain afternoon on which you could wash your cars. Any other time would produce problems.

But Switzerland is not socialist either. Taxes are not that high. Local taxes are higher than ours, national taxes are lower. There is little government interference in the economy. It's just that we have forgotten what a strong community is like. The Swiss have a strong sense of solidarity and a strong code of behavior that goes with it. They are not individualists, but that doesn't mean they are socialists. They represent an older, communitarian way of thinking which seems to have died out in the U.S. and most of the rest of Europe.

 

[gc70]

If I remember correctly, the Swiss also don't pass out citizenship very freely.

 

[grimjaw]

Switzerland does not has the same rate of drug-related crime or urban deprivation as the USA

. . . and since those two things are apparently unavoidable in the US, we'll go after what we think we can control . . .

jm

 

[wacki]

Switzerland does not has the same rate of drug-related crime or urban deprivation as the USA

. . . and since those two things are apparently unavoidable in the US, we'll go after what we think we can control . . .

Switzerland gives heroine addicts cheap drugs under close medical supervision. Their attitude is that it's much better coming from a quality controlled and supervised source than a "blow-me-for-drugs" dirty needle carrying heavily cut product drug slinger.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Even with 3 spoken languages Switzerland is very monocultural, much like the rest of western european countries, with a very paramilitary police force. It is very easy to purchase a firearm if you are not a criminal as it should be. Drugs are a huge problem in Switzerland with a vast majority of illegal immigrants contributing to the trafficking problem.
The one saving grace for the swiss (although very restrictive by US standards) is the fact that it is burned into every childs brain from the time they are born is that you must always follow the rules. Its almost creepy to watch teachers in grade schools shape classrooms into hordes of robot drones. I live in Switzerland and have a child attending French speaking public school currently if you are wondering with what authority I am speaking on.