Swiss argument may be lacking from your argument soon

[Joe Demko]

I am not sure that I like your tone.

Even if the following equation were proved to be true:

more guns = more crime + more suicide + more mental anguish + (fill in the blanks)

it wouldn't change a RIGHT. Human beings have a God given right to self-defense.

You know, I've never been too thrilled with that line of thought. God-given? Which god? Do people who believe in different gods not have identical rights?

I'd like to see a well-reasoned, logical explanation for the right to self-defense that didn't involve appeals to supernatural authority.

I'm not at all comfortable with making gun rights faith-based.

 

[col_tapiocca]

I wonder if the Swiss would ever willingly give up their arms.

At least one Swiss (ME) will not give up my arms!

 

[bumm]

Joe Demko was saying
>You know, I've never been too thrilled with that
> line of thought. God-given? Which god? Do people
> who believe in different gods not have identical
> rights?

>I'd like to see a well-reasoned, logical
> explanation for the right to self-defense that
> didn't involve appeals to supernatural authority.

>I'm not at all comfortable with making gun rights
> faith-based.

I think the idea comes from the famous phrase, "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights." I don't think the reasoning is really that any specific diety granted those rights, it just implies that every person HAS those rights. The Constitution and Bill of Rights limits our government from infringing those rights. Or at least it's supposed to.
Marty

 

[MEH]

You know, I've never been too thrilled with that line of thought. God-given? Which god? Do people who believe in different gods not have identical rights?

I'd like to see a well-reasoned, logical explanation for the right to self-defense that didn't involve appeals to supernatural authority.

I'm not at all comfortable with making gun rights faith-based.

Well I’m a Christian, and as such I believe there is only one God.

People are given free will by God, which means they can choose any path or belief they want regardless.

Jesus never said to force our belief on others, so I believe that everyone has the right to worship in whatever they want, I also believe that people have the right to live free from all other oppression with the ability to defend themselves, express their beliefs, and basically do as they please with their own life.

 

[Fosbery]

I wonder if people who believe there are no inaleinable rights would mind if I took them out into space and killed them and took all their property? Afterall, rights are just a legal invention so in deep space where there's no laws it's find to kill, plunder and rape all you like

 

[Cosmoline]

At least one Swiss (ME) will not give up my arms!

Glad to hear that. Though you should feel free to keep giving us your K31's and 1911's ;-)

 

[LAR-15]

I'm not at all comfortable with making gun rights faith-based.

Fine but I am.

Our Creator gave us the right to self defense because we live in a fallen, evil world where bad things happen.

 

[pax]

You know, it doesn't actually matter whether I know the guy who built my house or not, or even if I believe my house was built by someone else entirely than the guy who actually built it. My beliefs about who formed the house don't actually affect the fact that my house is standing right here on this ground, today.

Similarly, the appeal to Creator-endowed rights does not mean your rights themselves are faith-based. It is simply a shortcut way of saying that your rights exist, independent of any external or government authority, and are the natural outflowing of your existence as a human being.

No arguments over religion required... which is a darn good thing, as those are usually frowned upon on THR.

pax

 

[SpeedAKL]

But with all that Dr. Kevorkian right-to-die stuff, I thought the left was trying to tell us that suicide was a noble thing? I suppose that it's OK so long as it's not done with guns:banghead:

 

[geekWithA.45]

It seems like this comes up any and every time someone quotes "endowed of their Creator of certain unalienable rights".

I'm not at all comfortable with making gun rights faith-based.

Well, there IS an advantage to that: you have to conclusively prove the nonexistence of Divinity before you can undermine that which flows from it.

Seriously, whatever happened to taking public mentions of religions/Divinity in stride? Since when did people start taking cries of "IMPENDING THEOCRACY!" seriously? Sheesh.

Relax, people! We have GUNS. No one is going to make us pray to anyone/anything we don't want to, or prevent us from praying to who/whatever we want. No one is even going to try.


Is there anyone here who is unwilling to agree that the theologically neutral statement

"...endowed of their creator certain unalienable rights"

is functionally equivalent, in all respects, to the nontheological statement

"unalienable rights inherent in our existence"?


Can we all hold hands, say amen/concur, and get past this particular bit?

 

[ctdonath]

If you believe in a supernatural Creator, then surely you must (long justification short) conclude that you have a responsibility to protect that creation - primarily yourself.

If you do not so believe, then surely you must conclude that at minimum you exist and that protecting that existence is up to you by any tools & means necessary.

Whatever your philosophical source of "rights", one you have is the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense. That some view the source of that right differently than you, cope with the fact that (A) there are differences, and (B) we still come to the same conclusion.

Now, can we get back to arguing about the Swiss?