Arisaka Question

[Bad Primer]

Hi,

I have a Japanese rifle someone literally gave me after their father died. I am a shooter, hunter, reloader and I will collect an occasional old revolver or shot gun but I know nothing about these rifles.

I read that at the end of the war Japan ground the Chrysanthemum off of their weapons before surrendering them. I have heard that rifles with the chrysanthemums intact are more valuable.

I have attached a photo and it seems like a portion of the symbol is lighter than the other portion. Would you know if the chrysanthemum has been rubbed off or is this just the way it was stamped when it was manufactured years ago.

The metal in this rifle is in amazing condition given its age but I am sure it would not be appealing to a collector because it looks like somewhere along the way someone painted the stock brown. I will probably try and strip the paint and return the stock to something resembling the original finish.

I would really value opinions regarding the chrysanthemum. Thanks for any and all information you can provide.

Stay safe, God Bless

 

[gunlaw]

That looks like an intact mum. From the pictures the rifle appears to be refinished or had something done to protect it. The intact mum adds about $75.00 to the value of the rifle. This is if the rest of the rifle is original.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Looks to me like it had an intact mum, then someone overstamped it, then buffed it.

The stock wood looks to be in good shape, but be careful if you try to remove the finish. There may be some of the original varnish underneath and it was a nasty plant-based substance, the dust of which can be an eye and lung irritant.

 

[bersaguy]

Apparently, the Japanese would deface the mum when a rifle was retired from military service, not just the ones that were hastily ground off at the end of the war. That's kinda what it looks like to me.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/183097-arisaka-type-30-rifle/

 

[Bad Primer]

Thanks! This is really interesting! I really appreciate the responses and the warning regarding the original finish.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

The over-stamp means the rifle was removed from the Emperor's service before the end of the war. The top of the receiver almost appears to have either had some light corrosion removed or has been sandblasted in my opinion. Look at this website for the all inclusive information on the Arisaka: https://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

The seam in the stock is pretty common as it is said that the Japanese had to manufacture wood tall enough to make the butt as they were short large enough blanks to make the stock. Refinishing is up to you. Whoever did yours sure put plenty on.

 

[Bad Primer]

The pitted appearance is a bit exaggerated due to my photo editing I sharpened it up fairly heavily to enhance the chrysanthemum in order to see the details better, but you may be right about the sandblasting.

If it was “decommissioned” so to speak does that mean it was just worn out? Out of curiosity I pushed a patch through the barrel and found it to be loaded with a gooey, black cosmoline like substance. After a dozen patches the bore had the strangest looking rifling I have ever seen. I have tried to photograph it with a bore light and my iPhone. Is this typical?

 

[bersaguy]

The Arisaka rifles all have Metford rifiling, which was used on the Lee-Metford and others. Its a type of polygonal rifiling that has the appearance of being worn out if compared to cut or button rifiling. Rifles decommissioned but retained for training or school use were not unsafe, or completely worn out, but were not up to military spec. Take a look at this website for some info on the markings.
https://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

 

[Slamfire]

Hi,

I read that at the end of the war Japan ground the Chrysanthemum off of their weapons before surrendering them. I have heard that rifles with the chrysanthemums intact are more valuable.

I have attached a photo and it seems like a portion of the symbol is lighter than the other portion. Would you know if the chrysanthemum has been rubbed off or is this just the way it was stamped when it was manufactured years ago.

The metal in this rifle is in amazing condition given its age but I am sure it would not be appealing to a collector because it looks like somewhere along the way someone painted the stock brown. I will probably try and strip the paint and return the stock to something resembling the original finish.

I would really value opinions regarding the chrysanthemum. Thanks for any and all information you can provide.

Stay safe, God Bless

My Dad brought back two Arisaka's after the war, got then out of a Depot in Tokyo bay, about Feb 1946. He was an Officer and was invited to get some. They had to fit in his duffle bag, so he did the duffle bag cut on the stock.

Both had the crest ground off, and he said "that was something the Japanese did'

Sammy, the gun club's last WW2 veteran, I mentioned to him a Japanese Paratrooper rifle I saw at the range, this is a rare, takedown Ariska, and it had the crest on the thing. Sammy said "how did that get it?". So, I had to follow up.

Sammy was a veteran of Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and arrived in Japan for a short occupation period with his Navy unit. He walked on the nuclear blast area in Hiroshima or Nagasaki (I forget which). He said the ground was crunchy.Sammy was Navy Communications and landed second wave, with the Marines, and on Iwo Jima, his communications unit was wiped out by a bonzai charge. Sammy said of the 25 in his unit, only he and another stayed alive. Sammy got a bayonet wound and a buttstroke in the attack. And he had nightmares about it, if you talked about the war.

This is the knife Sammy used to stab the Japanese who stuck a bayonet in his arm and side.



there were two of them, the other one buttstroked Sammy in the head, stunned him, and Sammy had a lump on his skull all his life. The only reason Sammy stayed alive is that "those Marines over there" got the second Japanese before he could finish Sammy off.

When Sammy came back to the states on a troop ship, his unit landed at San Pedro Harbor CA. Upon disembarking all Soldiers, Sailors, Marines were required to open up their duffle bags. Sammy saw a pile of grenades and land mines off to the side, as those were taken away and if the service man had a rifle, they had to get in line to have the crest ground off. All Sammy knew is that we had an agreement with the Japanese.

But, this is what gets me, the United States at some time after the end of the war, made it a policy to grind off the Emperor's property mark on Japanese weapons, and was doing it in the Continental United States with American personnel. Why the heck we cared and put time and effort into this, I don't know.

But, it reflects the relative rarity of unground rifle crests. A bunch of beat to heck Arisaka's came in from China in the 1990's, all had crests, but the average rifle was a GI bring back. And based on what Sammy said, post WW2, the US was grinding the Chrysanthemum's off to keep the Japanese happy.

 

[Bad Primer]

The Arisaka rifles all have Metford rifiling, which was used on the Lee-Metford and others. Its a type of polygonal rifiling that has the appearance of being worn out if compared to cut or button rifiling. Rifles decommissioned but retained for training or school use were not unsafe, or completely worn out, but were not up to military spec. Take a look at this website for some info on the markings.
https://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

Really appreciate the info on the rifling and the perspective on decommissioning. I knew absolutely none of this. If this rifle was safe to shoot it would be fun to make the ammo for it.

 

[Bad Primer]

My Dad brought back two Arisaka's after the war, got then out of a Depot in Tokyo bay, about Feb 1946. He was an Officer and was invited to get some. They had to fit in his duffle bag, so he did the duffle bag cut on the stock.

Both had the crest ground off, and he said "that was something the Japanese did'

Sammy, the gun club's last WW2 veteran, I mentioned to him a Japanese Paratrooper rifle I saw at the range, this is a rare, takedown Ariska, and it had the crest on the thing. Sammy said "how did that get it?". So, I had to follow up.

Sammy was a veteran of Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and arrived in Japan for a short occupation period with his Navy unit. He walked on the nuclear blast area in Hiroshima or Nagasaki (I forget which). He said the ground was crunchy.Sammy was Navy Communications and landed second wave, with the Marines, and on Iwo Jima, his communications unit was wiped out by a bonzai charge. Sammy said of the 25 in his unit, only he and another stayed alive. Sammy got a bayonet wound and a buttstroke in the attack. And he had nightmares about it, if you talked about the war.

This is the knife Sammy used to stab the Japanese who stuck a bayonet in his arm and side.

View attachment 993236

there were two of them, the other one buttstroked Sammy in the head, stunned him, and Sammy had a lump on his skull all his life. The only reason Sammy stayed alive is that "those Marines over there" got the second Japanese before he could finish Sammy off.

When Sammy came back to the states on a troop ship, his unit landed at San Pedro Harbor CA. Upon disembarking all Soldiers, Sailors, Marines were required to open up their duffle bags. Sammy saw a pile of grenades and land mines off to the side, as those were taken away and if the service man had a rifle, they had to get in line to have the crest ground off. All Sammy knew is that we had an agreement with the Japanese.

But, this is what gets me, the United States at some time after the end of the war, made it a policy to grind off the Emperor's property mark on Japanese weapons, and was doing it in the Continental United States with American personnel. Why the heck we cared and put time and effort into this, I don't know.

But, it reflects the relative rarity of unground rifle crests. A bunch of beat to heck Arisaka's came in from China in the 1990's, all had crests, but the average rifle was a GI bring back. And based on what Sammy said, post WW2, the US was grinding the Chrysanthemum's off to keep the Japanese happy.

 

[WestKentucky]

Really appreciate the info on the rifling and the perspective on decommissioning. I knew absolutely none of this. If this rifle was safe to shoot it would be fun to make the ammo for it.

Is it 6.5 or 7.7? They are both doable, but the 7.7 is much more readily available than the 6.5 jap components.

 

[Bad Primer]

Wow!! That was amazing to read and so very interesting! Truly the greatest generation. My favorite Uncle fought at Cebu in the PI, but really did not like to talk about his experiences.

Also, I thought that all crest removal was a Japanese activity. My “cancelled” chrysanthemum now makes it even more interesting from a historical perspective. I wonder how this rifle got here? I do know that the original owner worked for an oil company and had assignments all over the world in the 50’s and 60’s, in exotic places.... perhaps he picked this up in his travels before gun regs made this impossible....

Thank you again for your reply. It was thoughtful of you to take so much time to answer my thread. My curiosity in the rifle is quickly changing to fascination. I guess everyone of the rifles have a story to tell!

 

[Bad Primer]

Is it 6.5 or 7.7? They are both doable, but the 7.7 is much more readily available than the 6.5 jap components.

6.5.....,

 

[WestKentucky]

The 6.5 jap stuff is around but it’s not plentiful. There’s likely not much of a market compared to other calibers so I suspect new ammo to not be made for a couple years until we are fully recovered from the current mess of ammo supply. Reloading is a similar proposition in that dies aren’t plentiful and brass has a different head dimension than common stuff so it’s hard to even make the brass out of something else. I have 1/2 of a 6.5 arisaka in pieces that will be built eventually but I’m not even considering using the factory chambering because of availability. I’m leaving towards a big-bore AR round in something like 450 bushmaster or similar. I did know where a set of dies was for sale that were cheap enough. If your interested I could see if they are still available.

 

[Bad Primer]

Yes! I would be interested and thank you very much!

 

[Bad Primer]

The 6.5 jap stuff is around but it’s not plentiful. There’s likely not much of a market compared to other calibers so I suspect new ammo to not be made for a couple years until we are fully recovered from the current mess of ammo supply. Reloading is a similar proposition in that dies aren’t plentiful and brass has a different head dimension than common stuff so it’s hard to even make the brass out of something else. I have 1/2 of a 6.5 arisaka in pieces that will be built eventually but I’m not even considering using the factory chambering because of availability. I’m leaving towards a big-bore AR round in something like 450 bushmaster or similar. I did know where a set of dies was for sale that were cheap enough. If your interested I could see if they are still available.

I am also interested in finding a real gunsmith who can thoroughly review this rifle to see if I should even bother reloading for it. Not someone who runs the bolt a few times and says “looks good to me”. I got a great place for old revolvers. I need a good place for rifles.

 

[Slamfire]

The WW2 generation hated the Japanese and all things Japanese. There was nothing positive about the Japanese, and negative stories, no matter how implausible, were believable. I met one WW2 veteran who was still having problems with his actions in New Guinea. Japanese service men preferred to die than to surrender. Wounded would blow them selves up, along with American Medical staff, or helpers, rather than surrender. The New Guinea veteran was still upset more than a half century later about shooting wounded Japanese in stretchers. It was not worth the risk of helping the guys, and they might be as dangerous and stupid as rattlesnakes if left alive.

So given the attitudes, and the relative ignorance of weapons in general, the WW2 generation had stories of cast iron Japanese rifles. It fit within their attitudes, the Japanese did not value life, therefore it makes sense they would issue cast iron rifles, which would blow up in the face of the shooter.

However, this shows the ignorance of the general American population about firearms. American's picked up these Japanese training rifles. These were for schools, so the students could gain a familiarization on how a rifle functioned. These things were designed to fire wooden bulleted blanks. And attach a bayonet. A real bullet could be put in the magazine, fed in the chamber, and kaboom! if fired.

These rifles look like a real service rifle. Even the local gun store did not know this was a trainer.

from a distance, looks Arisaka



closer, unless you know what to look for, still looks like a real rifle



bolt, no locking lugs! But them, maybe the bolt handle is a locking lug (nope)











enough of these were acquired by American GI's, Marines, and Sailors, who were mechanically incompetent, and unfamiliar with gun design, and someone put a cartridge in the things and blew themselves up. Given enough of these incidents, all Arisakas were considered dangerous and beneath contempt. I can't remember the number of Veterans, including my Father, who told me the Japanese issued cast iron rifles to their troops.

You would think that was nuts, but it fit within their angry stereotypes of stupid and suicidal Japanese. Got to remember, Japanese pilots went looking for ships to crash into. Today we are used to suicide bombers.

Rental car return for Portland and NYC




but back then, that was beyond civilized behavior. Sammy would not buy a Japanese car. To me, he pointed at the Buick in the drive way. He was upset that you could not buy an American television or VCR, the name might be US, the maker was Japan.

 

[CapnMac]

There were huge stockpiles of Arisaka after the war--several million from all the forces in China and SE Asia were surrendered after the war. They were piled deep in warehouse in Japan, where US Occupation forces often collected them.
There were other warehouses in East Asia where the Arisaka were turned over as War Reparations. Thailand equipped its army with Arisaka (and they aggressively ground the Mums off) Republic of China also issued out Arisaka scrubbed of mums. About the only power in east Asia that did not issue Arisaka were the Russians (and they may have warehoused the ones they seized).

The in-nation surrendered Arisaka were just held in warehouses and not issued. Only those issued out to Self-Defense forces were "de-imperialized."

Now, over on the left side, the triple circle symbol represents one of the Tokyo factories a real expert will know which)

 

[entropy]

Nagoya Arsenal.

 

[Phil from Kansas]

The fundamental tenet of the Japanese society was that their emporer was a god. When a soldier was issued a rifle with the imperial mum it was their honor to serve their god. They would do anything to bring honor to him. When the US occupied Japan we faced the Herculean task of deprogramming an entire country that had worshipped their emporer for generations. There is no excuse for the brutality shown by the Japanese to all non-Japanese, but we can put their actions in context.

 

[Bad Primer]

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I had no idea I would get this amount of great info. The historical perspectives you provided are fascinating, making this unique piece even more fun to own.

The bolt on this rifle does have two locking lugs (very “Mauser-like”) so I don’t believe it was a training rifle designed to shoot wooden bullets. Still, since this rifle was “decommissioned” I will no longer consider loading cartridges for it or shooting it. It was decommissioned for a reason and I don’t want to find out why the hard way. I think it’s just going to become an interesting wall hanger over my loading bench. Thank you all for your contributions. Please know how much I appreciate it. Stay safe, God Bless!

 

[eastbank]

i have two type 99,s in 7.7 japanese, one came from my late uncle who fought in the south pacific island hopping battles and as they were getting ready to ship out ,one of his buddies told him if he wanted a rifle to go pick one off a large pile they were getting ready to dump in the ocean. he shipped it home in a plain wooden box. the second i bought off the son of a ww-2 veteran, both are nagoya, both have the mum ground off. i have killed deer with my late uncles rifle.

 

[Bad Primer]

It’s nice that you can use them to hunt with too. A piece of history that’s still functional.

 

[CapnMac]

Still, since this rifle was “decommissioned”

Well to my eye, that "defacement" looks more like a few decades of being polished, not a decommissioning mark.
I've seen the ones where the mum is "scrubbed"--this usually involves a grinder with a 5" wheel, or a bench grinder, or the like--something aggressive. Often with the gouges and scratches left behind. And, maybe, a splatter of cold blue, or bbq paint.

Given your photos, I'd be comfortable shooting that one--if inclined to hand-loading to "softer" than book specs.