Arkansas: Must notify the officer when carrying (rule change)

[Kilgor]

Arkansas State Police reply:

Mr. XXXXXX,

I have forwarded your e-mail over to our legal counsel that was responsible for the promulgation process.

There are not penalty provisions in the law or rules for failure to comply.

Is there a reason as a citizen that is concerned about rights being quashed that you did not participate in the promulgation process and make your concerns known at that time? The notices were published in state wide newspapers and on our website where you probably received the copies of the rules that prompted your e-mail.

Anyway, legal counsel by the name Jean Langford will reply to you as soon as she can.

Cora Gentry

 

[Kilgor]

Ms. Gentry,

Thank you for forwarding my concerns and for the preceding correspondence. Had I been aware of the proceedings I would have voiced my concerns then. Unfortunately the notices did not garner my attention at the time. I will try to keep abreast of such issues from this point forward. Is this the location where such notices would be posted? http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions/rs/rs_chl.html

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

[Kilgor]

Keep it up Kilgore. Can you believe she "pulled you up"? Too much power in too few hands if you ask me.

I certainly think a level of intimidation was intended, even if subconsciously on her part.

 

[Kilgor]

razorback2003,

I apologize. You were correct.

 

[Seminole]

Is there a reason as a citizen that is concerned about rights being quashed that you did not participate in the promulgation process and make your concerns known at that time?

Is the implication that if, for whatever reason, one doesn't speak out about an abuse of authority at the time it occurs, one loses any right to complain about it in the future? :banghead:

 

[conw]

Captain mike,

Living in NC and being required to tell any officer who initiates a dialogue between him/her and me, I have a similar script, although a bit easier to say

Officer, I'm required by law to tell you that I am legally carrying a firearm. I have my concealed carry permit.

I don't necessarily think it's a good idea to say WHERE it is unless they ask, or ask what they want you to do. If they ask you to do something unreasonable and you don't comply, they're going to be even more PO'd if you asked them to tell you what to do.

My script reminds them that I'm required to tell them - that it's not a threat. I wouldn't feel very comfortable saying "my sidearm is on my right hip" no matter what I said first, but that's just me.

If you ask what they want you to do, and they say "Take it out and show it to me" (which would be idiotic on their part of course), what are you going to say? I would say "I don't feel comfortable doing that. You can lift up my shirt and get it yourself, but please be careful. I would prefer you didn't!"

It just seems like the more you complicate the situation, the more things can go wrong. I would never ask a LEO what I should do next if I didn't have a gun, and it makes no more sense to prostrate myself if I do have one.

 

[razorback2003]

No problem. Laws can be quite confusing.....and after living in Arkansas most of my life (presently in TN) I understand that ASP thinks they can make up their own laws for better or worse. I find it hilarious that the very place that issues concealed handgun licenses in Little Rock has signs all over the parking lot telling folks with licenses that they can't bring handguns in the ASP HQ on Interstate 30. Yes, I know we can't....but it seems like ASP higher ups are afraid of the people who are spending big money on licenses and who ASP gets big $$$ off (why should the license be so expensive is another story). ASP is also one of the parties that makes recommendations to the state legislature on any changes to CHL law. I'm glad i don't have to fool with their silly licensing process (I filled out one page for my TN permit VS 10 NOTARIZED pages for AR) and waited two months in AR VS one month in TN. Typical Arkansas State Government at its finest.

 

[conw]

How much is the license, Razorback?

 

[razorback2003]

The initial license fee to ASP is about $150 for first time applicants. You also have to take a class and that can be around $100. You also get to fill out about ten pages of paperwork that has to be notarized on EVERY page! It is absolutely silly. One can carry a handgun, blackjack, slapper, or other weapon when on a journey without a license at 18, and also don't have but very few restrictions (you can carry a handgun on school property when on a journey by the way and also church).....BUT go through the hoops of getting a license at 21 and proving you are legal...you can't carry in 20 some odd places! That makes a lot of sense! And anyone can carry on or about their person a loaded long gun....again without a license....a lot just doesn't make sense! I think i'd trust those with licenses more than Jim Bob claiming he is on a 'journey' with a blackjack and pistol and a loaded rifle under a blanket behind the seat.

 

[grimjaw]

razorback2003 is right, it's absolutely silly. I thought that moving back here from Washington state would make things easier in the gun-owning/carrying realm. Not so! It was easier and less expensive for me to be licensed to carry in Washington state than it is in Arkansas.

Keep in mind that even though Arkansas went for McCain in the most recent election, it's been blue-dog Democrat for years and years. I learned hatred of government and bureaucracy here in the years before I moved away. Nothing has really changed.

jm

 

[lehcpa]

Well......

At least it's in writing now. I received a 5 minute sermon in August, 2008 from a trooper because I didn't notify him. I guess they can just make up the rules as they go along.

 

[razorback2003]

So is ASP going to put this rule into effect for those carrying long guns or other weapons legally? Do i need to notify the police when i have my loaded shotgun behind the seat under a blanket???? Absolutely SILLY to fear those who have licenses more than Jim Bob with no license and no training but with luggage in the truck (journey) and a 38 snub in his pocket, with the 30-06 loaded in the gun rack.

 

[chuckusaret]

I was recently stopped in one of those DUI/What you got road blocks. The LE ask for my DL and Insurance card, went to his car , ran my DL and Ins., returned and handed me DL/Ins cards. He then aked about my CCL and if I was armed. My reply was yes and his reply was, Very good and have nice evening sir.

 

[wyocarp]

Here's what I recommend if stopped by an officer:
* Hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2
* "Hi Officer. My vehicle registration & proof of insurance are in the visor pocket - and my driver's license and concealed carry permit are in my wallet on my right hip. My sidearm (don't ever call it a G..g..g...g...gun) is also on my right hip. How do you want to proceed?"

Absolutely Not, in my book.

You might as well notify that you are wearing underwear with stains and how they would like you to proceed with that as well.

Although, most of the time, they have no confusion over whether I am carrying or not. They usually ask if I have more guns. To which I reply, "Yes or Sure."

 

[wyocarp]

It just seems like the more you complicate the situation, the more things can go wrong. I would never ask a LEO what I should do next if I didn't have a gun, and it makes no more sense to prostrate myself if I do have one.

Exactly, if you aren't required to by law.

 

[tasco 74]

my copy of the constitution says nothing about notifying anyone if i'm carrying a firearm...................................................................

i'm like uncle ted the 2nd amendment is my carry permit.....................

 

[Kilgor]

ASP's reply:

January 29, 2009



Mr. XXXXX XXXXXX:


Please acknowledge receipt.


Please forgive any delay in my response.


Generally, as you know, rules adopted by a State agency, board, or commission under authority (specific by Arkansas law) are designed to be guidelines for both the governmental office (as administrator) and the general public on how successfully all parties should comply with those related laws; the rules are not designed to conflict with or expand subsisting laws.


We believe that this agency took all legal steps to adopt our latest CHCL rules, effective on and after January 1, 2009, as proper legal guidelines for observance of applicable CHCL laws (state and federal). The new rules are, without doubt, a substantial improvement over the older rules being replaced from 14 years ago (1995).


Having said that, it is important for you to know that Arkansas State Police is always willing to work with interested individuals and groups to resolve issues. We are not saying that the CHCL rules are perfect; but, in this instance; they are as perfect as we could make them with adherence to the laws and with public assistance – public comments and filings and participation in 2 recent public hearings designed to make our rules a good product and comply with agency procedures (and electronic procedures).


I believe that the rule provision at issue is proper and serves the public well as a strong and important safety measure designed to protect both our licensees when (and only when) they are actually carrying concealed and the law enforcement officer(s) on scene. I do not believe that it exceeds our Director’s legal authority in adopting new rules.


While we may continue to discuss your concerns, with respect and candor I tell you that, at this time, it is unlikely ASP will immediately re-open the CHCL rules just completed, having spent many months and much staff time/labors on improving those newly-adopted CHCL rules. During that process, ASP was able to ask for and get active public help from Arkansas residents to make those rules better. I am very sorry that you missed that public opportunity. Let us politely agree to disagree at this time, reserving amicable discussions for future opportunities.


I do have an idea for you. Perhaps you will consider another current avenue to address your concerns – that of adding to Arkansas laws to specify in more detail a CHCL licensee’s formal duty to present concealed handguns while carrying, as well as CHCL licenses, to law enforcement officers on scene. Please consider contacting your area legislators or others to see if any would be interested in sponsoring new or amendatory legislation to address your current issue. The State Legislature is now in session; so it is an ideal time to consider a legislative remedy. If the laws change in 2009, then ASP will abide by our duty to review our rules for any text amendments necessary due to new Arkansas laws being enacted.


In future, please do monitor and send us e-mail comments on CHCL activities of the ASP, viewable on our on-line sites with new rules, new forms, and new procedures at www.asp.arkansas.gov


I will add your name and e-mail address to the CHCL Master list of contacts (interested parties) which I started in 2008 on the CHCL rules. May I have your full address and phone numbers for that purpose ? At this time and by this message, I will ask CHCL unit staff to do the same.


Please let me have your return comments; as I am interested in what you have to say.


Jean Langford, Attorney, Arkansas State Police

 

[Kilgor]

ASP's reply:

Mr. XXXXX XXXXXX

Sir,

I write to confirm that I have added you to my Word Master Contact list for CHCL laws and rules, maintained in 2008 and updated for 2009 entries.

I did enter your name and e-mail address, using the correct spelling of your last name (unlike yesterday’s response – sorry) !

Please advise if I can assist you.


Jean Langford, Attorney

HR/Personnel
Administrative Services Section
Department of Arkansas State Police
1 State Police Plaza Drive
Little Rock, Arkansas 72209
501-618-8193 Work (Direct)
501-618-8710 Work Facsimile (FAX)
501-249-4892 Business Cell Phone

 

[Kilgor]

My reply:

Ms. Langford,

Thank you for taking the time to address my concern. I apologize for the delay in my response. Power outage and other necessary matters intervened. As I said to Ms. Gentry, I completely understand why the ASP would desire to have this rule in place. It does, however, appear clear that this rule does not derive it's basis from Arkansas code. As such, it should never have been put in place and should be retracted post haste.

As to contacting my legislators, I do that frequently. I will not contact them in an attempt to rewrite the Arkansas code to match this particular ASP rule for two reasons. First, when an officer makes contact with a CHL holder and is told of the presence of the firearm he/she will generally act in one of two ways. They will either say "thank you for telling me" and move on with the business at hand or they will want to take the weapon into their possession for the duration of the contact. It is my position that the firearm is safest remaining in the CHL holder's holster. Any additional handling of the firearm (especially if the officer is unfamiliar with the particular model of firearm and its operation) introduces unneeded risk of an accidental discharge of the weapon.

Secondly and most importantly, I believe that as a free people we have a 4th amendment right to go through our daily routine without being required to reveal the contents of our pockets to anyone, especially an officer of the law. CHL holders are among the most law abiding subclasses of the general population. They have undergone an FBI background check, had training, submitted to fingerprinting, been photographed, and have spent $200+. As an example of this, of almost 1.5 million licenses issued in Florida's 21 year licensing program, only 166 have been revoked for firearms related crimes. That is 0.0001% if I did the quick math correctly. Only 3,744 were revoked for ANY crime after issuance. That is 0.0025% if my math is correct. http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html A CHL holder is a person to trust, not a person to fear. They should be treated as such; not like a group of criminals. If you are interested in more information on the subject I would refer you to professor John Lott's books on the subject. http://www.Google.com/products?q="...&hl=en&show=dd

You said that the ASP is always willing to work with interested individuals to resolve issues. How will ASP work with me to resolve this?

Thank you again for your time.

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

[Kilgor]

ASP reply:

February 2, 2009


Mr. XXXXXX XXXXX,

Sir,

We are listening to your concerns and are not dismissing them at this time. We have a business discussion and let us continue that.

I do not have an immediate solution. I cannot commit the agency to do an immediate and costly re-write of the CHCL rules for this one provision this month.

Let us see, at the end of the current 2009 legislative session in another 2 months or so, if any new CHCL laws enacted in 2009 require an amendment to the new 2009 CHCL Rules. If yes, then we can address your own disclosure concerns at that time - that would certainly be a more ideal time to do so.

While this is not an immediate solution for you, it is practical and economical. I will save your messages for us to address later this spring as to any possible amendments to or “re-visiting” the CHCL rules.

I do thank you for your patience and appreciate your interest to ensure that the CHCL rules are the best that they can be as guidelines for legal compliance.

Cordially, Jean Langford, Arkansas State Police

 

[Kilgor]

So it appears we are at an impasse for the moment with ASP. I will contact them again in a few months to see where we are.
For right now, I have sent all communication and concerns to the Arkansas Attorney Generals office and await their reply.

 

[Kilgor]

ASP message:

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assemb...lls/HB1237.pdf

Mr. XXXXX XXXXXX

Sir,

I know that you will find these pending pieces of CHCL legislation
interesting.

See CHCL amendment to prohibited places to carry in House Bill 1237, attached via Internet link. That bill was just amended effective 2/2/2009.

See also CHCL bill, HB 1097, via the AR Legislature's link, at
www.arkleg.state.ar.us

Jean Langford, Arkansas State Police

 

[Kilgor]

Ms. Langford,

I appreciate your effort in letting me know about this piece of
legislation. I was aware of it and have been in conversations with Reps. Smith, Harrelson, Hobbs, and Rice about it. Hopefully, reason will win out and the people of Arkansas will be allowed an effective means of protecting themselves against potential hate crimes at churches.

As to waiting for other changes to revisit this issue, that seems to be a reasonable approach. Please keep me informed of the process. I will contact you again in a couple of months to see where we are.

Thank you again for your time on this matter.

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

[Kilgor]

Sir,

You are most welcome. I will calendar to e-mail you later.

Jean Langford, ASP

------------------------------------

I must say that thus far I am happy. Certainly a little resistance was met, but it appears in the end that they are open to changing it. We will see in a couple of months.

-Kilgor

 

[Kilgor]

There's no penalty for not notifying, nor is it the law.