Armed civilian stops mass shooting

[nipprdog]

 

[JShirley]

I agree.

Most people are excellent armchair quarterbacks. But it's fascinating how much the ideals from the armchair are actually in opposition to the facts of reality.

The reality is that it is exceptionally difficult for one human being to deliberately kill another human being without some extreme circumstances being involved. To do so on a deliberate level invariably requires some act of "dehuminization" of the targeted individual or peoples.

They are not "people", for example...they are the "enemy". And the "enemy" must be killed.

He is not "human", he's a "rabid dog". And a "rabid dog" must be put down.

They're not "real", they're images on a remote camera. And images can't really die when you shoot them.

Killing at a distance is easier. Killing when you can't see the individual is easier. Killing when the individual is less-than-human is easier.

But killing face to face is exceptionally hard, because you are face to face with a real, live, human being.

For most people, at the end of the day when they have actually killed another person, people must face the reality that they did, in fact, take the life of another human being. Thinking that this wouldn't affect someone, or worse, thinking it wouldn't affect YOU in the same circumstances, is wistful thinking at best. And delusion at it's worse.

I hope this guy gets both a good attorney AND a good therapist. There is no shame in either.

A lot of this is based on SLA Marshall's claim of how hard it is to kill another human.

SLA Marshall, despite wide acceptance by the establishment for over 30 years, has been proven a fraud by historians who have checked his so-called research. He dramatically inflated the number of troops he claimed ro have interviewed, and there is no reason to believe he didn't similarly lie about the content of what they said to "prove" his opinions.

Training. Training. Training. You don't have to dehumanize someone to kill them. you just have to be mentally and physically prepared.

I don't say this glibly. I am happy that everyone I shot at on my first deployment was at a distance, and I didn't have to go on the battle damage assessment on our biggest engagement, the one with most of the kills. But I don't think for one instant that I would hesitate, if in the appropriate circumstance. Peter Kindsvatter's research as to whether I would be left with PTSD from such an event shows that the major factor would be if I was in genuine fear for my life, not the fact that I killed a human.

John

 

[Shimitup]

My uncle served in the Korean War, he told me of walking up on two North Korean soldiers on the trail telling me as they were raising their rifles to shoot he took them both down. I believe this was his first experience with combat. I vividly remember his comment about it being the most unnatural feeling to shoot another human being. Clearly that fact did cause him to hesitate to do what must be done.

 

[rdmercer]

I didn't read thru all of the comments but has it been determined what handgun this young man used? Or has it not been reported yet in any of media reports?

 

[rust collector]

I saw or heard reference to Glocks possessed by shooter and by good samaritan.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They offered high praise to this young man, but of course their expert commentator pointed out how infrequently this ending occurs and cited cases where this sort of thing went south (apologies for not getting his name).

They aren't wrong. More often than not when a mass shooting is stopped by a citizen (non-LEO/Military), it is one that is either unarmed or finds an expedient weapon to use as a projectile or blunt force object. The reason for this disparity between armed citizens and unarmed or initially unarmed citizens stopping these events is because the armed citizens are so outnumbered by the unarmed. Wrestling or tackling the shooter is one of the most common ways unarmed citizens stop these shooters.

Why aren't there more armed citizens stopping these shootings? Either they aren't present or they opt NOT to engage. There are apparently a significant percentage of gun carriers that feel very strongly about not engaging a mass shooter or any active shooter unless all other avenues to attain safety are unavailable. Engaging is an absolute last choice for these people. So if they can duck into a store to get away, duck around a corner, get behind cover, etc., that is exactly what they are going to do. You can find numerous posts attesting to this on this forum. In short, you can't count on these people to stop mass shootings, even if they are present, unless they are forced into a position where they have to engage. That is their choice, but the impact of this is that it lessens the likelihood of an armed citizen stopping a mass shooter because many armed citizens do not have this goal.

Of the engagements stopped by armed people before the on duty cops arrive, it is not uncommon for those people to be off duty cops, retired cops, security guards, or firearms instructors. Additionally, it isn't uncommon for the shooter to have run his routine and stopped shooting before the on duty cops arrive.

There are cases where the Good Sams do not come out well as a result of their intervention. That is also correct, either being killed or crippled by the gunman or mistakenly killed by the cops.

 

[armoredman]

I read the coroner stated the murderer had eight hits on him. I guess this will be a drill to try. I am betting I probably won't do as well. I had heard he started 50 yards away and closed the distance.
Eli's Nightmare, ten rounds, start at 50, draw from concealment on buzzer, fire at least one round from 50, close to 40 yards, subcompact pistol only. unmodified, and must navigate between three obstacles to simulate innocent bystanders, must score 8 hits on target, 8 rounds on target 1 must be A Zone, total time allowed 15 seconds.

 

[General Geoff]

So this guy, who is said to lack any formal firearms training, not only engaged the target within 15 seconds of the perp opening fire, but he also got 8 hits out of 10 shots fired from a distance of ~40 yards, with a pistol.

This guy should be in the special forces.

 

[ms6852]

They don't need to spin it, they'll just bury it.

It is so true. Since I only watch the local news, they never mentioned it. I just found out about on another forum.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Not even the police anymore. They've been getting hit hard with civil rights prosecutions.

So this citizen violated the mall firearms policy. I don't know if it is a criminal act in that state, but if it is, you can be damn sure he would've been charged if he'd hit an innocent party.

I heard that in that locale if you enter posted premises armed and the owner asks you to leave, if you then don't leave you are trespassing. Otherwise no criminal act.

 

[old lady new shooter]

It amazes me how antis are spinning this. The concealed carrier broke "mall rules" not a law, to carry a firearm and stopped a mass killing. That somehow equates to we need more gun laws? The cognitive dissonance some of these people go through to justify how others should live is astounding.

 

[old lady new shooter]

“The real hero of the day is the citizen that was lawfully carrying a firearm in that food court and was able to stop the shooter almost as soon as he began," Ison said.


Huh.

Just got back from a weekend trip to Indiana for my 40 year high school reunion. Yep...I was carrying the whole time, like normal. While I skirted the Indianapolis area to and from, I wasn't near the Greenwood Park Mall area, though.

My sister asked me, as I was getting ready to change for the event, if I was going to carry my gun to the reunion. "Yep."

Indiana, like SC, allows people to carry concealed in places that serve alcohol so long as you don't consume. So the fact that the reunion location served alcohol wasn't a concern for me.

This is a consideration whenever I carry: You cannot avail yourself to a concealed firearm for defense if you put yourself in circumstances where you are without one, either because you choose not to carry or because you choose to go to places where you are not allowed to carry.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate going to the post office?

 

[old lady new shooter]

If true, that's one hell of a shot to take with a pistol under stress AND score good hits. Dude's a better marksman than most police.

Very smart to steady his shots using available support. I can't help but imagine he has done some tactical training, even if informal.

I heard his grandfather taught him how to shoot.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Vic Stacy shot even farther with a revolver and actually did battle with the gunman (not sure the Hoosier Hero actually exchanged shots with the gunman or not) and Stacy had zero military or police training and had not taking any classes. Here, Stacy overstates the distance in yards when it was apparently in feet, 165.


As far as being better than most police, maybe, maybe not. We don't know how many times he hit the bad guy with his 10 rounds. We don't know if the bad guy was in motion. We don't know if the bad guy was shooting at our hero or if our hero just basically ambushed him (which would be very smart).

I think I saw 8 of the 10 rounds hit the BG.

 

[old lady new shooter]

the possibility of a mass murderers family bringing a lawsuit against a young man who stopped said relative from murdering several other people is quite likely not in the realm of possibility.

That's actually very common in cases where the family member was shot in self-defense. I heard one family complaining that their relative was shot after breaking into a house armed to rob the residents, saying "he didn't have to shoot him, he steals because how else he gonna get money to buy clothes".

 

[old lady new shooter]

While it is very easy to file a lawsuit against anyone, Indiana law
provides complete civil immunity to a person who uses force (including
deadly force) if that force is justified under Indiana’s self-defense statute.
Ind. Code § 35-41-3-2. If a court determines a person who files a
lawsuit was committing a forcible felony or attempting to cause unlawful
serious bodily injury or death at the time justified force was used against
them in self-defense, the case will be dismissed. The original attacker
will be required to cover additional costs, including attorneys’ fees. This
law also applies to the family or estate of a person who is killed through
the justified use of force. Ind. Code § 34-30-31-1

Copied

That is a great law. Every state should have one like that. Didn't realize that was behind your initial assertion.

 

[old lady new shooter]

So this guy, who is said to lack any formal firearms training, not only engaged the target within 15 seconds of the perp opening fire, but he also got 8 hits out of 10 shots fired from a distance of ~40 yards, with a pistol.

This guy should be in the special forces.

He didn't just ENGAGE him in 15 seconds, he NEUTRALIZED him in 15 seconds.

 

[JShirley]

So this guy, who is said to lack any formal firearms training, not only engaged the target within 15 seconds of the perp opening fire, but he also got 8 hits out of 10 shots fired from a distance of ~40 yards, with a pistol.

This guy should be in the special forces.

This young man is not police or military. definitely not the same thing as "no formal training".

Also, Special Forces' mission is training foreign groups to be fighting forces, not being super soldiers.

 

[CDW4ME]

I think I saw 8 of the 10 rounds hit the BG.

I saw that too.
8 out of 10 rounds fired hit determined by autopsy.

Given the exact same accuracy a snub (or revolver) and many pocket guns LCP, Glock 42, PM9, would have been out of ammo - all else equal.
Some people did not think capacity advantageous when I tried to encourage it in May.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/capacity-yes-please.905427/

 

[Craig_AR]

Special Forces' mission is training foreign groups to be fighting forces, not being super soldiers.

Subtle difference between Special Forces and Special Operators. Special operators such as Delta Force and SEAL Team 6 (old names, I know) are pretty much super soldiers. However, the general public tends to consider the two phrases as the same. Further, aren't the Green Berets (Special Forces) considered Special Operators?

 

[stillquietvoice]

If the rampage shooter had been shot in NYC, they would have arrested the good guy for murder. Wokery has not taken over Indiana as of yet.

And be one of the few times that gun crimes are prosecuted vigorously, even after lessening other charges, just because the individual wasn't a gang banger.

 

[JShirley]

Subtle difference between Special Forces and Special Operators. Special operators such as Delta Force and SEAL Team 6 (old names, I know) are pretty much super soldiers. However, the general public tends to consider the two phrases as the same. Further, aren't the Green Berets (Special Forces) considered Special Operators?

yes, Special Forces are part of Special Operating Forces (SOF). So, all SF are SOF, but not all SOF are SF.

 

[Speedo66]

If the rampage shooter had been shot in NYC, they would have arrested the good guy for murder.

What are the chances of an unknown 22 year old like that having a legitimate carry permit in NYC?

Just about the only citizens other than retired police having one are VIP's and celebrities.

 

[Speedo66]

I think I saw 8 of the 10 rounds hit the BG.

Where can one find a video of the shooting?

 

[Spats McGee]

Where can one find a video of the shooting?

I've been looking for it, with no success.

I keep turning the numbers over in my head and I'm just kind of amazed. 10 shots with an 80% hit rate, under pressure, at 40+ yards. I want that young man on my team.