Armed Forces Rifle Qualifications

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ShaiVong

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I know that in the Army (Marines too?), you have to qualify with an M16. I think this involves shooting metal man-sized targets that pop up for a certain ammount of time, at various ranges.

The questions are as follows: How far out do they shoot them? What does this relate to in prone group sizes?

I'm kind of wondering how much better I need to become to 'cut the mustard' in terms of basic army marksmanship. :p
 
Been a long time for me(about 20yrs), but here's how we did it in the Army: 40 shots from prone, and standing in a foxhole. 25m to 200m. The targets were slightly smaller than life size and were mid-torso & head green silhouettes. They would pop up for varying times, depending on range. I think the 25m targets would be up for 1 or 2 seconds and the 200m for 3-5. They'd pop up behind dirt mounds(in no particular order) and, depending on that particular mound, we would see either the whole upper torso target or just the tops of the shoulders & head. Sometimes qualifying was luck-of-the-draw; as some lanes were landscaped better and the targets were easy to see, while other lanes would really suck with overgrowth and a lot of shadows, making the distant targets almost impossible to see. I'd say the head portion measured about 6" wide & 7 or 8" tall. 37 hits or more was expert.
 
At FT. Dix, they were life-size blue-green plastic Soviets (maybe they were Red Chinese, I didn't get a look at the facial features.:evil: ) They popped up from between 50 to 300 meters. At 50 it was just a head and shoulders. At mid-way ranges, it was upper torso. At 300, it was full torso and waist. They were fun to shoot at, but it'd have been more fun if they flew apart or something like that. :evil: I qualified expert. Just two other guys and myself made expert out of the whole company.
 
I used to work with a guy who said that the popups were so full of holes when he qualified that it was hard to get the hits to register.

He figured it out and qualified highest for the day by shooting directly in front of the targets so that the flying dirt would register as hits.
 
try it in the rain, with your kevlar and glasses on, which keep fogging up as soon as you are hunkered down.

add in some severely battered M16 mags with deformed feedlips

you'd be luck you get close to expert while you are constantly unjamming your rifle and feeding the live round that ejected into the one good mag that you got.
 
USAF qual is a target at 25 meters with 10 different sized silouettes on it. We shoot 40 rounds for practice and 40 rounds to qualfy. Positions are prone supported, prone unsupported and kneeling over baracade. Security forces shoot 2 or maby 3 times a year. I shoot once and a few career fields only shoot every other year. There are some people in my squadron who are, or will be in either Bagram and Bagdad a few months a year for the next few years. Me included!
Scary aint it.
I have a bushmaster A3 and try to get some of the young airman out to the range as often as possible before a deployment to get a little more hands on with the weapon. because the airforce it too tight with it's ammo

Cajun
 
How far out do they shoot them?
Although there are alternate types of U. S. Army qualifying ranges the most common is as follows (per FM 23-9):

40 targets total at ranges from 50 to 300 meters = 20 targets from the supported fighting position plus 20 targets from the prone unsupported position.
The 50 & 100 meter silhouettes are F-type (i.e. head & shoulder) while all others are full E-type sihouettes (ie waist to shoulder).

The times the targets are exposed range from 3 sec for a single 50 meter target to 12 sec for dual targets at 150 and 200 or 250 meters.


What does this relate to in prone group sizes?
The alternate 25 m qualification uses the target you can find at this link. It's target# DOD-M16A1. If this target is placed at 25 meters, the silhouettes appear the same size as the pop up targets you're asking about.

Have fun,
Larry
 
USAF qual is a target at 25 meters with 10 different sized silouettes on it.

25 meters? I can throw a rock 25 meters......:D

I understand that my beloved Corps now uses some form of semi-realistic type targets for combat training, but for basic marksmanship qualification...

They shoot a total of 50 rounds.....with iron sights.....

10 shots slow fire, offhand at 200 meters (60 seconds per shot allowed)

10 shots rapid fire, standing to sitting at 200 meters(two mags, 5 rds each) (60 seconds total time allowed)

10 shots slow fire, kneeling at 300 meters (60 seconds per shot allowed)

10 shots rapid fire, standing to prone at 300 meters(two mags, 5 rds each)(60 seconds total time allowed)

10 shots slow fire, prone at 500 meters (60 seconds per shot allowed)

Total of 250 possible points

25 years ago....(I doubt I could do it now).....I could hold all 10 rounds at 300 yds rapid fire prone, inside of 5 inches....not exactly MOA, but not bad for iron sights......

I might not have killed it with a 5.56 mm, but I could hit it :)

25 years ago, the Air Force used to fire at 50 meters......good grief:rolleyes:

Semper Fi, Sgt
 
As an ex-Firearms Instructor in the Air Force, it is my firm belief that the Air Force trains it's personnel just enough TO GET THEM KILLED!

Seriously, last year they changed the AFI's (regulations) to where if a person would likely not be armed during combat (not SF, or CES or in another dangerous specialty) they would only require qualification ever 30 months.

Instead of qualifying more often, the AF is spreading qualifications out further.

Most people heading out the door for a deployment, are no where near ready for their tour in the desert. I am surprised more AF personnel haven't died in combat this go around.
 
Anybody know the COF when they still used the Garand and/or the '03/03A3? My grandfather qualified "expert" and I'm curious to know what he did.......
 
Army - he was in recon for a Tank Destroyer battallion:

40th Division, Artillery
640th Tank Destroyer Battallion
Reconnaissance Company
Techinician, 4th grade
Served March 25, 1942 - Sept. 26 1945

Attended basic at Ft. Lewis, Washington state

As long as I'm asking - how about qualifications in WWI - my great uncle (his older brother) served there:

US Army
40th Division
115th "TMB" (anybody know what that stands for?)

My dad still has his (great uncle) helmet in which he wrote down everywhere he was sent around the inside.

I wrote the veterans department, but many of their records were destroyed in a big fire some time ago and they didn't have much info......
 
The Marine corp trains on the KD course of fire and also some popups.

The KD (K)nown (D)istance course of fire is 50 shot 5 points apiece

200 meters
5 sitting Bullseye target
5 kneeling Bullseye target
5 standing Bullseye target
10 shots rapid fire Head and Shoulders sillouette

300 meters
5 rounds kneeling Bullseye target
10 rounds rapid fire prone Head and Shoulders sillouette


500 meters
10 rounds prone Man sized sillouette


Scoring
Expert
240 to 250
Sharpshooter
230 to 239
Marksman
220 to 229

This was done over a 2 week period
1st week was snapping in drils in the morning regular job afternoon
2nd week was 4 days of shooting and fifth day was qual day
 
kotengu, the fire at the records center in Kansas City, MO, destroyed the 201 files of everybody from A through G. Late 1960s? Disremember exactly when.

In 1954 in Basic, we qualified with the Garand at 100, 200 and 300 yards from the four positions and using the sling. I don't remember how many rounds, but at least one clip per position per distance.

Regular line Infantry outfits? I don't know.

Art
 
I'm kind of wondering how much better I need to become to 'cut the mustard' in terms of basic army marksmanship.

Are you enlisting? The basic qualification guidelines are as listed by others above. You can find many field manuals online at http://www.adtdl.army.mil/atdls.htm.

You can get some practice in service rifle shooting through various CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program)-affiliated Service Rifle matches. Many clubs have "CMP" matches, and High Power or Service Rifle clinics. You can look for a list of events at www.odcmp.com and you want to get a move on - most New England clubs wrap up for the season in October. Ironically, Massachusetts, that communist, gun-unfriendly state, has more matches, clinics, and clubs than all 5 other New England states combined.

High Power events shoot at 100, 200, 300, and 600 yards. Many clubs shoot reduced range events (using smaller targets) at 100 or 200 yards only. The CMP provides the clubs with loaner AR15's (and Garands) so you don't have to own your own - just show up with $20 or so and they'll supply you with rifle, ammo, targets, and often a spotter or coach.

The Army course is more of a combat course and does not exercise precision aimed fire like known distance courses do. The Marine known distance course requires precision aiming but doesn't exercise target recognition and range estimation skills like combat courses do. Many people from both services think infantryman should do both - but the services may be too hide-bound to try the "Not Invented Here" approaches.

Believe it or not, many shooters miss the 50 meter targets. Here's how. First, put on 32-40 lbs of helmet, body armor, load bearing equipment, water, first aid bandages, 2-4 grenades, and at least half a dozen magazines. Now, walk around for a while until you are sweating and thirsty. Crawl 50 feet or so up a hill. Then lie down on top of all that junk and start firing at ranges very close to what your M16 is battle-ranged for.

Now, without warning, a profile target (a few inches high representing shoulders, and a higher center mass representing a helmet) pops up at close range. Because it is so close, you forget that your rifle shoots a couple of inches high. Bang - right over the target. I used to aim at the "dirt line" and if I skipped one in, who cares as long as the target goes down.
 
Yeah, I wish. Forget about Saddamites; My WIFE would kill me :eek:

No, this is mostly for personal skill.

I have a rifle, I want to be a rifleman ;)
 
There are plenty of NRA and CMP competitions, and you can qualify for marksmanship ratings based on your running results.
 
Join the Navy....

M16 qualification was firing 30 rounds on semi-auto without killing any of the marine range officers. Remington 870 qualification involved firing three 00 shells at a 55 gallon drum at a range of 5 feet. :)
 
I've shot the National Guard qualifying course of fire. Targets are green 3D torsos which pop up for various lengths of time from 50 to 300 meters in 50 meter incriments. Any non-peripheral hit will knock the target down if the target is operating properly. Half of the course of fire is from a foxhole. The other half is from prone. There is an untimed pause to allow the shooters to change positions. You have 40 rounds for 40 targets (no fair making up your misses). According to the resident range officer, a qualifying recruit will have another recruit with him telling him where the next two targets will be.

36 or better out of 40 will earn you an expert rating.

The course of fire was as follows:

FROM A FOXHOLE
50m in 3s
200m in 6s
100m in 4s
150m in 5s
300m in 8s
250m in 7s
50m in 3s
200m in 6s
150m in 5s
250m in 7s
100 & 200m in 8s
150 & 300m in 10s
100 & 250m in 9s
200m in 6s
150m in 5s
50 & 100m in 6s

CHANGE POSITIONS

FROM PRONE
100m in 5s
250m in 8s
150m in 6s
50 & 200m in 8s
100&200m in 12s
50 & 150m in 8s
100m in 8s
150m in 8s
300m in 9s
100 & 200m in 10s
150 & 250m in 12s
100 & 150 in 8s
100 & 200 in 9s

You could use IPSC cardboard targets for practice, but consider any hits below the A zone to be a miss.

FYI, expert rating is reasonably attained with an antique bolt action 30-caliber rifle without being told what the next targets will be, so an AR isn't too difficult (no, I did not do this). Basic qualification can be accomplished by semi-trained monkeys armed with slingshots and a large supply of rocks.

Leave the rifle sighted for 200m and shoot a little high at 300 and a little low at 50. Even at 300m, wind is almost negligable. Okay, 40mph crosswinds WILL mess with your POI (yes, I have done this), but your average breeze won't hurt your score.
 
I don't remember if the closest target was 25m or 50m, but longest is 300. (Army)

One can find POA for all targets in some manuals. IIRC, one aims at the very base of the closest targets, and works up.

As stated, it's harder to shoot with all your gear on. My helmet, in particular, annoys me to no end, especially from prone.

John
 
My Grandfather was in the trenches in France during WW1, he mentioned that one of the guys with him had never fired a rifle before and in fact had been a civilian 2 weeks prior in New York City. My Grandfather knew how to shoot from being on the farm, so he taught this unlucky fellow.

Semper Fi
 
ShaiVong: The quals are minimal in the USA. As everybody said 25 - 300 meters popup targets everybody passes.
 
Sir Galahad: Just two other guys and myself made expert out of the whole company.

If you qualify expert, do you get more options as to your choices of duty if you qualify as expert?

Newt
 
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