armor piecing "military bullets" in Austin area, Texas report

[waterhouse]

This was just on the news. I don't care to discuss the actions of the man or children, but more the legality of the armor piercing bullets. Any one have an idea how they define them in Texas?

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/local/120809-Man-Pulls-Gun-on-Kids-Who-Rang-Doorbell

Austin Police have arrested Richard Yax for possession of a prohibited weapon after they say he pulled a gun on three children who rang his doorbell and ran off.

Friday night, a little before 9:00, in an Avery Ranch neighborhood three boys were having a sleep over. The oldest is 12 years old. According to one of their mothers, who asked not to be identified, the kids slipped out for a little mischievous adventure. Ringing door bells.

"Well, they are ding dong ditching, which is wrong," said the mom.

It was one door bell too many when they reached a house on Broadbay Dr. owned by Richard Yax.

"When he opened the door, he screamed, you woke my family up, and it was only 8:00, and they were running and my son jumped in the bushes," said the mom.

Yax, investigators say, came out with what appeared to be a semi-automatic rifle.

"Not only was he cussing at them, he was clicking it, cocking it, 15, 20 times," said the mom.

The boys claim he chased them down the street, and after cornering them in a cul-de-sac, Yax allegedly said, " I'll put a (expletive) hole in your head," while leveling a rifle at one of them. According to the arrest warrant, the end of the gun barrel was 4 to 6 inches away from the head of one of the boys. Yax denies he pointed the rifle, but reportedly admits he demanded an apology after chasing them down.

When police arrived at the home of Richard Yax, according to court documents, he told investigators that he only used his sons toy air rifle. But when investigators pressed to see the toy rifle they found something different. An AR - 15 rifle, made by Panther Arms, was recovered. The clip was not inserted, but what was in the clip was a surprise.

"Armor piercing rounds were found, when the officers got there and found the rifle, it was not loaded, but the magazine that was sitting next to the rifle was loaded with armor piercing rounds," said Austin Police Dept. Corporal Scott Perry.

Because of those military bullets, Yax was arrested for having a prohibited weapon. He is also charged with Aggravated Assault.

Avery Ranch is located in Williamson County, which is why Richard Yax was taken to the jail in Georgetown. Eventually he'll end up in the Travis County Jail. Investigators determined that he has an active warrant for his arrest. It involves a Theft by Check case dating back to 1994.

I'm no lawyer, what he did may be aggravated assault. But it also says he was arrested for having a prohibited weapon. I'm curious as to how this is defined.

 

[TexasRifleman]

But it also says he was arrested for having a prohibited weapon. I'm curious as to how this is defined.

Doesn't make much sense. AP ammo is illegal in Texas, but not for rifles. Sounds like media stupidity to me.

Or, the cops read 46.05 which mentions AP, but they ignored 46.01 which defines that as handgun only.

I'd guess they drop the charges of AP at some point along the way. Weird story.

"Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.

The list of "prohibited weapons" is in 46.05.

(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Interesting. Here is the Texas statute definition of "armor piercing ammunition":

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.01

(12) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means handgun ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in pistols and revolvers.

Since when is .223 "handgun ammunition" and "to be used principally in pistols and revolvers"?

Yes, there are .223 handguns, but that could hardly be considered ammunition that is principally used in pistols and revolvers.

 

[lobo9er]

....

 

[lobo9er]

....

 

[MM60]

It's completely legal to own armor piercing rifle ammunition. This is another example of clueless police arresting somebody because they saw something that they're ignorant about. I think that - in order for somebody to be allowed to be a police officer - they should first have to memorize every single one of the 9,000 to 12,000 laws that apply in their jurisdiction.

 

[waterhouse]

That confirms what I thought the law said. I'd be curious to see if the weapons charge gets dropped.

I was watching Charlie Brown Christmas with the nieces and they kept doing teaser commercials for "You won't believe what a man with a gun did to prankster children! . . . watch tonight at 9."

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think that - in order for somebody to be allowed to be a police officer - they should first have to memorize every single one of the 9,000 to 12,000 laws that apply in their jurisdiction.

Or at least learn how to look them up in a book......

Over the years I've had many "you can't have that" conversations with Texas LE. So far I've managed to avoid being arrested but I figure it's just a matter of time before some overzealous cop decides to haul me in for no reason. I carry a copy of Chapter 46 of the penal code in my range bag lol.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The Federal definition of armor piercing ammunition is in 18 USC 921:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

So, according to (17)(B)(i), .223 ammo could, BY A VERY LONG STRETCH, be considered armor piercing because there are a FEW .223 handguns.

I think he will be found not guilty of the prohibited weapon charge. He should be hung up by his thumbs for chasing the kids down, either with a real rifle or with a rifle that was close enough to terrorize the kids. I mean come on, now.

I'll bet those kids don't ding dong ditch anymore, though! (In my youthful days we called it a very politically incorrect term).

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think he will be found not guilty of the prohibited weapon charge. He should be hung up by his thumbs for chasing the kids down, either with a real rifle or with a rifle that was close enough to terrorize the kids. I mean come on, now.

The prohibited weapon charge will be dropped once a DA looks at this case I bet. The rest of it...... he's toast.

 

[lobo9er]

running around with any gun like that isn't a good idea and not going to reflect well on you

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well, at least we know where he likely got it from:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/ap-steel-core-penetrator-ammo

I just watched the ending to the memorial service for the 4 murdered police officers in Lakewood, WA, so I don't quite have the heart to discuss the actions of a minority of cops right now.

 

[52grain]

Stupid question, but won't most if not all rifle bullets pierce armor to some extent?

 

[FenderTK421]

I am assuming this was another case of someone confusing common FMJ rounds w/ extremely uncommon/often non-existant AP rounds?

 

[52grain]

Keep Austin Weird.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Stupid question, but won't most if not all rifle bullets pierce armor to some extent?

Nope. You are probably thinking of soft body armor and while probably most rifle calibers (fired at full velocity) will penetrate soft body armor, soft body armor isn't a standard for what is or is not armor piercing. Generally speaking, armor piercing ammo is designed for the purpose of penetrating hard armored or fortified targets.

 

[MM60]

I've heard that green-tip 5.56 has a steel or tungsten core for armor penetration. I've also heard that it is just ball ammo. Is either one true? Or is it painted green for some other reason?

 

[NavyLCDR]

The NATO standard, NATO symbol, M855 round is intended for use against light matériel targets and personnel, but not vehicles. Identified by a green tip, the 62 grain projectile is constructed of a lead alloy core topped by a steel penetrator, the whole contained within a gilding (copper alloy) metal jacket. The primer and case are waterproof. (See representative cartridge drawing.) Despite the round's penetration abilities, BATF has specifically exempted it from the AP ban.

 

[Nicodemus38]

Most people confuse fmj with armor piercing. what most likel happend is that the cop saw non jsp or non jhp and thought "super duper cop armor penetrating bullet"

however, who here thinks these kids will ring someones doorbell again?

 

[evan price]

Probably had a mag full of green-tips. A real yawner, really, because they are completely legal. The other things the guy did will see him in jail, however.

 

[dec41971]

Off Topic, but wow, very poor judgment on his part. Stupid kids for Christ sakes. The oldest among the 3 only 12yrs old. A man chasing kids with a gun? He admited it too. Did he even need a gun for this? Ask any LEO, guns and kids never turn out well in court, and most of the time judge will throw the book at you. If there is a jury, you are toast too. Just look at the kind of sentences parents get for failure to secure around kids, its usually maximum allowed by law.

The gun charge will be thrown out, and if there was any chance of going easy on that 1994 warrant, he can forget it since he had a gun around the kids. I suspect the idiot did in fact point it at the kids too.

 

[Still Too Many Choices!?]

They arrested him for pointing a rifle at the kids head, not the mag full-o green tips, IMHO. Kids pull a disorderly conduct stunt, and this guy goes all Rambo on them with his AR. The cops had nothing to charge the guy with, but police officers don't like being lied to(bb gun my ASS!!). Plus add in the kid's comment about the rifle being pointed at his head, and you have a fishing trip for a reason to take this guy down, just as a lesson. This is one of those take the ride for being an idiot scenarios if you ask me.

PS- Anybody that would chase after kids with an AR-15 after being ding dong ditched, is probably unstable enough to point a rifle at some kids head 4-6" away... Food for thought.

 

[ChaoSS]

Stupid question, but isn't there a federal law/ATF regulation against having AP rounds, and if there is a pistol that fires them, they define them as pistol rounds?

I hate how the article reads anyway, makes it sound like he was arrested for the ammo, and then they decided to slap him with a charge for running around threatening kids with a gun as an afterthought.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

M855 isn't considered armor piercing under the law so the pistol provision does not apply. Also, just because you can make a pistol in a caliber that has AP does not mean that the AP is then illegal. Look at all the rifle calibers used in hunting pistols such as TC/Encore Contenders.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Stupid question, but isn't there a federal law/ATF regulation against having AP rounds, and if there is a pistol that fires them, they define them as pistol rounds?

No, that's not how it's written exactly.

If you can shoot it in a handgun at all AND it's of a specific construction, it's AP:

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;

Then, for other ammo types, it has to be INTENDED for use in a handgun, so that excludes most rifle ammo types. There is an "or" between these sections.

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

M855/SS109 doesn't meet either of those definitions.