Army sees urgent need for M14s in Iraq & Afghanistan

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Not sure it it means anything to anyone here, but I'm a soldier in the Army right now, and I much prefer the M4 to the M16 AND the M14. To me, a smaller weapon and more rounds is better. I'd hate to lug around a larger heavier weapon and/or run out of ammo faster. Yes maybe the M14 is better for designated marksmen taking longer range shots with bigger rounds. But the average soldier firing his rifle is doing so in the streets and inside houses, and using suppression fire. Not across big battle fields and entrenched positions. And when I'm doing MOUT, the smaller M4 fits the bill nicely. Trying to run and gun while doing house to house fighting with a heavier longer weapon while carrying less rounds would be a disaster.

The old WWI and II idea of each solider staying in a fortified position taking single aimed shots at the enemy who is also in fortified positions is long gone. Maybe if we fight another nation like China or Korea it will be more pertinent. But right now, that is simply not how the fighting works. Lots of rounds in a short period of time at short ranges while you and the enemy are both moving is how wars work right now. At the M4 does this job much better than a big heavy wooden weapon. Weapon choosing should be based off what works in the war your are fighting, not sentimentality or out-dated doctrine. The M4 or other smaller, smaller caliber polymer weapons are what works for the vast majority of soldiers right now. Firing nine 5.56 rounds and getting 2 hits is much better than firing one 30.06 round and missing.

 

[shevrock]

for some reason this makes me think of how some snipers in world war 2 were issued scope m1's, and other Springfield bolt actions.

The real problem isn't the rifle, or entirely the round. Though it does always come back around to the round. Their will never be an all around do it all round. The best thing we can do is go the way of the Russians and other military powers. put at least one to two sniper in each squad, using a modified round of the basic infantry round. If it was possible, you could give grunts the .223, and DM a .228 [is their such a thing]. you never can please everybody. so theirs no point in trying.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure why the military can't go back to the philosophy it seemed to have in WWII, and forget once and for all the philosophy it seemed to take when it introduced the M16. One size does not fit all.

Agreed.

However, the Joint Strike Fighter project and the existing ubiquitous Humvee seem to suggest more, not less, of this thinking.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Thank you, Taurusowner, for your service and your insight. I agree with you. It seems that many people on the internet are stuck in last century's wars.

 

[SFvet]

This is why ArmaLite makes the SuperSASS weapon for long engagements as well as the AR-10 A2C for shorter engagements that require more power. I dont know why they dont just contract for AR-10 carbines

 

[the foot]

Back to the question, I suppose there are situations in the middle east and elsewhere when the M14 would be a fine weapon. But it should not replace the M4, as Taurusowner said.

Use other weapons/calibers, as required I say. There is nothing wrong with a mix of infantry weapons in a squad.

 

[SoCalShooter]

You know I am still a little miffed cause at some point the M14 stock was suppost to make it to the DCM !!!

 

[Evil Monkey]

There is nothing wrong with a mix of infantry weapons in a squad.

I agree.

5.56mm assault rifles
5.56mm belt fed LMG's
7.62mm marksman rifle
40mm GL's
rocket launchers


Doesn't get any better.

 

[HB]

Most of these discussions could be summed up with the statement "The M14 is the rifleman's' rifle". The M14 would still be a poor choice for general issue, but would serve well if a few were thrown onto the Hummer.

I don't know much about fighting conditions in the Middle East, but it seems like most guys do a lot more walking that shooting, and the shooting that does take place is under 300 yards and generally down streets and across compounds. I would also assume that most soldiers would be able to hit enemies at long range in combat conditions. The M16, while underpowered, is a good issue rifle. High Capacity, light, and ammo is light. Stick one or two m14s in the Hummer, if the need should arise for a long shot.

HB

 

[H2O MAN]

the foot I suppose there are situations in the middle east and elsewhere when the M14 would be a fine weapon. But it should not replace the M4, as Taurusowner said.

Yes, there are many situations in the middle east and elsewhere when the M14 would
be a fine weapon and no one is thinking about replacing the M4 with the M14 EBR.

 

[taliv]

The SR25 worked well for me in combat. What is your experience with it, H20 Man?

*cough*

btw, got a link to where you were telling us of the sr-25's shortcomings?

 

[LongRangeInternational]

It seems that a rifle that is more accurate, has an identical manual of arms to the M4, and blends in with the other rifles in the squad would be preferable. It worked for me in Fallujah, particularly with a bounty on US sniper's heads.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

LongRange makes a good point. The insurgents are fond of targeting anyone who looks different. Different to them = important. And they're usually right. Carrying a different looking rifle, no matter how more effective, is a good way to make sure the first shot is directed at you.

 

[H2O MAN]

Economic sensibilities dictate putting two or three modernized
M14s into action for about the same cost of just one SR25.


Can our government actually do the correct, cost effective thing just once?

We shall see.

 

[SFvet]

There is nothing wrong with a mix of infantry weapons in a squad.

I agree.

5.56mm assault rifles
5.56mm belt fed LMG's
7.62mm marksman rifle
40mm GL's
rocket launchers


Doesn't get any better.

Well replace the 5.56 LMG with an M-60 and that will be good! I was a 60 and 240 bravo gunner and loved that 60 hehe.

 

[Joseph85]

I'm curious as to why we're still using the same receiver for the modernized M14 or M21.

Why not remove the stripper clip guide and machine a picatinny rail into the receiver?

This would remove the weak spot of the bolt-on weird looking scope mount.

LRB of Long Island makes a receiver that is similar in concept to what seems like an obvious idea.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

I'm not sure why the military can't go back to the philosophy it seemed to have in WWII, and forget once and for all the philosophy it seemed to take when it introduced the M16. One size does not fit all.

Think about it, even us civilians for personal defense may have multiple weapons for different roles. At home I carry a pistol when conducting my day to day business around the apartment. If someone breaks in with no warning and I'm in the living room it gives the advantage that it is available now. If I have time to get to my bedroom, or I'm there to begin with, I have my much more powerful shotgun. For those who can CCW you may have different sized CCW pistols for different needs.

The military in the sniper role realizes that one size doesn't fit all and has different caliber sniper rifles available for different needs.

In WWII, not counting crew served weapons or specialty weapons, there were different personal arms issued to the troops. Some had submachine guns, which due to their relative lightweight and compact size, were ideal for house clearing in urban combat and personal defense use elsewhere. Non-combat troops and those in roles where they needed a compact personal defensive weapon (tank and artillery crews for instance) got the M1 Carbine. Combat infantry were to be issued the M1 Garand for hard hitting power and longer distance offensive combat.

So why today (and for the past generation) has the military assumed that one rifle, the M16 and its derivatives can do it all? Why do some people outside the military think they should all have the M14 (or another .308 battle rifle) and it can do it all. There is sometimes a need for troops who aren't snipers to take a mid to long range shot where the 5.56 just isn't well suited. There is sometimes a need for a more lightweight and compact weapon. Why can't the military issue both, either some troops get one and some the other, or everyone is trained on both and what is issued depends upon the mission of the day?

With the desire to add more M14s to those they have in order to suppliment the M16/M4 it seems the Army may finally be learning.

Excellent post! I think you saved us about three pages of discussion!

All I have to add is that I think the bean counters are at least partially to blame. Standardization has been a bit overemphasized (bring back the .45 ACP!), in my opinion.

 

[Rugerlvr]

You know I am still a little miffed cause at some point the M14 stock was suppost to make it to the DCM !!!

Nah, it never would have happened. They're not gonna let the CMP ship out thousands of NFA weapons, and they're not going to convert them to semi-auto. Remember, as far as the BATFE is concerned, once an auto, always an auto.

 

[For Freedom]

The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[Neckshot5seven]

The Minimi and those nasty ass auto grenade launchers are not deployed in a 9-12 man squad. There needs to be a few, or at least 1 M14 in a squad. + a man with a m14 will be able to lay down better and more accurate fire that will get the job done than a grenade launcher will. Especially at range. I dig the fact that it will punch through those mud huts and be able to kill on the other side of the wall.

 

[Dienekes]

Sometimes it seems like Paris Hilton has a better sense of logistics and supply than government and the military.

At least she has some idea of what she is trying to do.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I dig the fact that it will punch through those mud huts and be able to kill on the other side of the wall.

Most of the walls over there shrug off .50 cal hits pretty casually.

 

[Neckshot5seven]

im sure some of them do. Mabye not so much solid wall mud hut, but block walls are no chance for the .308. Ive reduced concrete blocks to dust at 300 yards with hunting bullets. They go right through

 

[For Freedom]

A rack grade M14 isn't any more accurate than an M4 Carbine or M16.

 

[Rugerlvr]

"Irrelevant Press Sees Urgent Need for Controversy, Ratings"

I'd hardly call Jane's "Irrelevant Press."