http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48547
Is there more to this story or... not?
Is there more to this story or... not?
Army whistleblower faces retaliation over hollow points
- Thread starter Deadman
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spartacus2002
Member
Well, the whole 'hollowpoints are illegal' thing is very circumstantial for the USA, seeing as we never signed the Hague Accords which banned expanding bullets
At least two branches are using hollowpoints. They're technically 'non-expanding', in that they don't expand any more than FMJ, but the hollowpoint increases accuracy somehow not fully understood.
At least two branches are using hollowpoints. They're technically 'non-expanding', in that they don't expand any more than FMJ, but the hollowpoint increases accuracy somehow not fully understood.
Right, they are called Open Tip Match bullets and they do have a tiny hole in the front, but they don't expand.
And, it never says hollowpoints, what is says is:
In 1985 the JAG ruled the following:
And in 1990 SOCOM said:
And, it never says hollowpoints, what is says is:
In 1985 the JAG ruled the following:
And in 1990 SOCOM said:
It looks like the Soldier went outside of his chain of command to resolve an issue. Additionally he 'broadcast' the location of his unit in a combat zone. These issues are taken seriously by the military.
Right - these bullets are NOT designed to expand or mushroom - the way a highly accurate bullet is created requires that hole in the front.
It's not that the hole helps...
Let's see...
Take bullet jackets, from an outfit like Sierra, or Berger.
Take lead wire, cut to approximate lengths. Lubricate.
"Squirt" the cores so that they are all of uniform size.
Or maybe now's the time to lubricate...
Place core in jacket, press to seat.
Now, you run the point of the bullet into the point die, and knock it out with the knocker out dealie, which goes down in the hollowpoint.
Let's see...
Take bullet jackets, from an outfit like Sierra, or Berger.
Take lead wire, cut to approximate lengths. Lubricate.
"Squirt" the cores so that they are all of uniform size.
Or maybe now's the time to lubricate...
Place core in jacket, press to seat.
Now, you run the point of the bullet into the point die, and knock it out with the knocker out dealie, which goes down in the hollowpoint.
You don't circumvent the chain of command without notifying them to give them an opportunity to fix things first. Circumventing the chain of command is taboo. This soldier knew not to and exhibited disloyalty putting his unit in danger when he positioned his unit during war. It doesn't seem like much but when the enemy piecemeals intel together they can draw the big picture. The soldier is not a whistleblower when the facts stack up against him because the U.S. Army is doing nothing Illegal. You take your orders and you follow them to the letter, nothing else. If the order is illegal then the soldier has the recourse to negate those orders and notify the chain of command that stands above the Leader who issued those Illegal orders whether written, stated or implied.
I don't think it's the hole itself that lends any accuracy, but the way the bullet is made has it suspended by the tip with a wire, and when the bullet cools that wire is withdrawn and that's what produces the hole.TexasSIGman said:
However, I have no idea if this is accurate or not, I just remember reading that somewhere, so take it with about a lb of salt.
They could have handled this on the "don't ask, don't tell" modus operandi.
Seems like commanding officers failed to protect their troops from idiotic orders, which is one of their chief duties - ref. Cmdr Abrashoff "It's Your Ship".
Seems like commanding officers failed to protect their troops from idiotic orders, which is one of their chief duties - ref. Cmdr Abrashoff "It's Your Ship".
it still amazes me that there even exists "rules of war". as far as i'm concerned there should be only one rule pertaining to war; WIN.
Bobby
Bobby
By leaving a hollow space between the lead slug and the front of the jacket allows the COM of the bullet to be shifted more rearward while keeping a better aerodynamic profile. Also, the open tip creates a 'bubble' of air that effectively creates a perfect profile for the front of the bullet.
Well, FWIW Kokalis had this to say about the M118LR:
"...When jackets are initially drawn, they look much like a rimfire cartridge case blank. After the lead slug is inserted into the bullet jacket, the front end or point of the bullet is closed using force and one or more dies. The straight sides have to go somewhere -- and it is often easiest if a tiny hollow point is left at the tip..."
(From "Silencer history and performance, Volume two.")
"...When jackets are initially drawn, they look much like a rimfire cartridge case blank. After the lead slug is inserted into the bullet jacket, the front end or point of the bullet is closed using force and one or more dies. The straight sides have to go somewhere -- and it is often easiest if a tiny hollow point is left at the tip..."
(From "Silencer history and performance, Volume two.")
I read the article and didn't understand what the deal is, Ok so this SGT is a sniper over in Iraq, using these bullets, some REMF officer tells him he can't use the bullets because they go against the Hague convention. He goes online and finds proof that the bullets are perfectly fine, and tells about his location. I think I got that much down.
So, what is the issue besides the fact that he gave away his position online? why did this officer go to the SGT with the BS? she should have gone to his chain of Command. I've told officers multiple times to stop talking to me and take it up with my chain. most of those were from a different branch, but its the same thing.
I guess I'm missing something here.
So, what is the issue besides the fact that he gave away his position online? why did this officer go to the SGT with the BS? she should have gone to his chain of Command. I've told officers multiple times to stop talking to me and take it up with my chain. most of those were from a different branch, but its the same thing.
I guess I'm missing something here.
spartacus2002
Member
rero360 said:
Allow me to fill in the missing piece.
I am former JAG. There are many JAGs who have no clue which end of the tube the round comes out, much less the finer subtleties of open tip match ammo v. hollow point expanding ammo. I'd bet money that she had no clue what this ammo was, and either (a) saw the open tip or (b) heard the snipers using sloppy language in referring to it as "hollow point," and then assumed it was verboten.
We don't have all the facts, but I do know two facts:
1. All ammo and weapon systems in use by US forces have been OKed by JAGs at echelons WAY above a BCT.
2. She should have investigated enough to determine whether the ammo in question was privately owned ammo or issued ammo. If it was issued ammo, 100% chance it has been legally reviewed and OKed before isssued.
Sergeants are painstakingly grown, Lieutenants are stamped out en masse by a big machine in the basements of West Point and Canoe U. I've seen video.
Quick history lesson
*Sigh* I hate this "Hollow points are evil" stuff. Quite funny how it came about. England had adopted the 303 round with a FMJ bullet. The rifle was great, but compared to the old large-bore rounds, the 303 round did not incapacitate the enemy as quickly. A quick solution was to saw off the tip of the bullet. This made the FMJ bullet a soft point and it performed much better in the field. The only problem was that the "sawed off" bullet would not feed properly from the magazine. Meaning that only the first shot could be of the "improved" bullets. All the rest of the magazine had to be filled with the "regular" FMJ. The Dum-Dum arsenal in India developed a bullet that would feed from the magazine and expand like the "sawed off" bullet did.
Now the Germans saw these new bullets and saw a chance to make England look bad. They declared the bullets "Inhumane" and made England look like they where doing something wrong. Because of this, the Hauge Convention was writen. It banned the use of "Dum-Dum" bullets. The US never ratified it, but we went along with it anyway.
So the reason we can't use expanding ammo in war now is because of a 100 year old p*ssing match between Germany and the UK. (No offence to the current Germany and UK.)
*Sigh* I hate this "Hollow points are evil" stuff. Quite funny how it came about. England had adopted the 303 round with a FMJ bullet. The rifle was great, but compared to the old large-bore rounds, the 303 round did not incapacitate the enemy as quickly. A quick solution was to saw off the tip of the bullet. This made the FMJ bullet a soft point and it performed much better in the field. The only problem was that the "sawed off" bullet would not feed properly from the magazine. Meaning that only the first shot could be of the "improved" bullets. All the rest of the magazine had to be filled with the "regular" FMJ. The Dum-Dum arsenal in India developed a bullet that would feed from the magazine and expand like the "sawed off" bullet did.
Now the Germans saw these new bullets and saw a chance to make England look bad. They declared the bullets "Inhumane"
and made England look like they where doing something wrong. Because of this, the Hauge Convention was writen. It banned the use of "Dum-Dum" bullets. The US never ratified it, but we went along with it anyway.So the reason we can't use expanding ammo in war now is because of a 100 year old p*ssing match between Germany and the UK.
(No offence to the current Germany and UK.)thanks spartacus, thats pretty much what I figured, so as far as we know, with the info we have, this is basically a non issue, the Sgt gets punished for breaking OPSEC, and the JAG officer gets spanked for being an idiot, other than that theres nothing to it.
As a side note, I once got bi*ched at by the E-7 that was incharge of a deployment I was on over OPSEC, we were in the Mob station and a friend of mine who is a LT came over to visit, we talked about a bunch of stuff, and he asked about what we were going to be doing, I told him that all I knew was that we were going to be working 12 hour shifts. as soon as he left the E-7 was all in my face asking me who was that, what did you tell him, I told him everything that went on and he started huffing and puffing about OPSECand I was like "look hes the LT that gave you your shots earlier today, I don't think he going to be telling anyone anything." never mind that the local press was there at our deployment ceramony.
eh, theres brain dead people in every MOS and every rank. best bet is to just ignore and avoid them.
As a side note, I once got bi*ched at by the E-7 that was incharge of a deployment I was on over OPSEC, we were in the Mob station and a friend of mine who is a LT came over to visit, we talked about a bunch of stuff, and he asked about what we were going to be doing, I told him that all I knew was that we were going to be working 12 hour shifts. as soon as he left the E-7 was all in my face asking me who was that, what did you tell him, I told him everything that went on and he started huffing and puffing about OPSECand I was like "look hes the LT that gave you your shots earlier today, I don't think he going to be telling anyone anything." never mind that the local press was there at our deployment ceramony.
eh, theres brain dead people in every MOS and every rank. best bet is to just ignore and avoid them.
My understanding of the main reason for "open-tip" match bullets (which is worth what you pay for it) is:
The way the jackets are formed, the open tip makes it possible for much more uniform thicknesses to be achieved, from jacket to jacket. This makes the center of gravities much more uniform, from bullet to bullet. More uniformity makes for more accuracy.
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The way the jackets are formed, the open tip makes it possible for much more uniform thicknesses to be achieved, from jacket to jacket. This makes the center of gravities much more uniform, from bullet to bullet. More uniformity makes for more accuracy.
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I completely aggree, it's our competent NCO corps that sets our military apart from all others. (I'm a Captain BTW
less work for me
)
I believe that the main point of hp match bullets is that the base of the bullet is not open/exposed. Many conventional bullet designs put the lead into the cup of the jacket with the bottom of the "cup" forward and leave the base of the bullet with exposed lead. Since the base is very critical to accuracy, some match designs turn the jacket cup around and leave the open end forward which allows the bullet's base dimensions and shape to be controlled a bit better and also makes the base less prone to deform upon firing.
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