AR's need to be held with a firm grasp for cycling?

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gun'sRgood

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I never thought of this when I thought I was having a cycling problem with an AR10. I had the AR in a sled but the stock, more or less, was free floating. When I held the gun firmly in the sled, the problem abated. Is this a thing I'm just really ignorant about or should it matter? I seem to recall that AR15's don't care. But now? I just don't know.
 
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gun'sRgood said:
I never thought of this when I thought I was having a cycling problem with an AR10. I had the AR in a sled but the stock, more or less, was free floating. When I held the gun firmly in the sled, the problem abated. Is this a thing I'm just really ignorant about or should it matter? I seem to recall that AR15's don't care. But now? I just don't know.
Click to expand...
This is what I thought you meant…..
 
It wouldn’t be a very good fighting rifle if one could “limp wrist” it.

I suppose with very weak ammunition, at the edge of function, a free recoil hold could exacerbate poor cycling.
But I agree with @hso, there is either enough gas to work it or not. If it isn’t working, it isn’t the firmness of the hold doing it.
 
No, your issues could be something different. Gas tube misaligned, wrong length , gas port size not large enough , wrong bolt head, ............................
 
To all of you, THANKS! I was having problems and more problems and then more problems with this AR10. The last draw was to send it in to the guys who made the upper and lower set. All the parts I put on were very nice stuff, BSF carbon fiber barrel, two stage and single stage Timney triggers, and such. All the parts on the gun were swapped out one at a time and in combinations. The dealer rebuild the thing with my parts and this is the best it does. I'm thinking they otta recheck their CNC for some spec work. They did make the claim that their upper was not quite in spec. SO, if your into Quintin Defense for AR10 receiver sets, DON'T!
 
It wouldn’t be a very good fighting rifle if one could “limp wrist” it.…
Click to expand...

So I guess that makes the M1911 a poor fighting pistol?

Fun fact: Actually, in the late 19th century, carrying a “bicycle rifle” was a rather common thing. Back then it didn’t frighten folks to see someone carrying a firearm, and cars didn’t exist. It was nothing to take your bike to the local target range or to a local farmer’s field to shoot small game.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ria-marlin-1897-bicycle-rifle/




.
 
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25-20 WCF said:
So I guess that makes the M1911 a poor fighting pistol?
Click to expand...
What do our armed forces use today?:)

And also, we’re talking about rifles, so the contemporary would be the Garand, which is also gas operated and most assuredly can not be “limp wristed”;)

(How I wanted to answer is, “No, my 1911s are perfect. There is only bad ammunition, not weak wrists, just ask Cooper.” But I may be a bit biased here…:D)
 
I understand that in theory it shouldn't matter, but in practice I've seen a gas operated shotgun consistently fail to eject when fired from the hip and work perfectly when held on the shoulder. A Remington 11-87 to be specific. When I contacted Remington I was told it was because of the shorter 26" barrel on my gun. They claimed the 28" barreled versions were more reliable because the gas had a little more time in the barrel to work the action.

Which I always knew was true with the very short versions with 20" or so barrels. But was surprised it could be an issue with a 26" barrel.

Interestingly my Benelli M-1 which is inertia operated, and supposedly required to be held firmly, has never failed to work regardless of how I hold it or with any ammo. It has been the most reliable shotgun I've ever owned. That includes pumps and doubles.
 
Okay, searched around some more, found a few others with the same issue. I don't get the mechanism behind secondary "recoil operation" mitigating issues, but it happens.

All those reported that have the same symptoms as the OP ended up being gas system issues. Which... is almost all that goes wrong with an AR; buffer changes are often just chasing gas issues from the wrong side. In appx order:
  • Ring sizing/wear — With BCG disassembled, put bolt (w rings) in bolt carrier. Turn bolt down. Bolt should not fall out.
  • Staking — Assure the carrier key is staked, and really staked. Do not look for staking, but shove the key itself hard... I forget the inspection method but there's lots of pressure going on when it operates so they can be not rattly, and also not tight.
  • Gas tube — Not kinked (can happen with bad installs), not bent or crimped where it goes into the key (if not timed right, can get smacked on bolt close), can rarely get the rollpin in front pushing burrs, etc. etc.
  • Gas block — If adjustable, make sure you understand it, adjust it properly.
  • Gas block alignment— I like my borescope to check this, but lots of methods to check it. Can be out of spec either-or-both rotated and fore-aft. Blowby is not usually an issue though so don't get over-concerned if you see carbon leaking around it.
 
@gun'sRgood

May I ask your physical size ? Weight and Height ?

There was a guy over at AR15.com that was having cycling issues with his Large Frame AR in 308.
He sent it back to the manufacturer 3 times, each time the manufacturer test fired it and couldn't find any issue.
Turned out the owner was about 150lbs, and the manufacturers tester was 250lbs.
For whatever reason... the 308 cycling was affected by the owners weight.
He altered the buffer weight / recoil spring weight and his issue went away.

I don't remember all the specifics, but his weight did factor into the reliable function in that particular instance.
 
gun'sRgood said:
To all of you, THANKS! I was having problems and more problems and then more problems with this AR10. The last draw was to send it in to the guys who made the upper and lower set. All the parts I put on were very nice stuff, BSF carbon fiber barrel, two stage and single stage Timney triggers, and such. All the parts on the gun were swapped out one at a time and in combinations. The dealer rebuild the thing with my parts and this is the best it does. I'm thinking they otta recheck their CNC for some spec work. They did make the claim that their upper was not quite in spec. SO, if your into Quintin Defense for AR10 receiver sets, DON'T!
Click to expand...

i’ll agree with your conclusion IF the”guys who made the upper and lower set”, the dealer who rebuilt the thing, and Quintin Defense are the same people. Or did a gun shop dealer build the original rifle from a stripped upper/lower? And then rebuild it? If the latter I’d suspect builder competence over the manufacturer being “out of spec”. AR10s can be tricky to build from scratch.
 
bfoosh006 said:
@gun'sRgood

May I ask your physical size ? Weight and Height ?

There was a guy over at AR15.com that was having cycling issues with his Large Frame AR in 308.
He sent it back to the manufacturer 3 times, each time the manufacturer test fired it and couldn't find any issue.
Turned out the owner was about 150lbs, and the manufacturers tester was 250lbs.
For whatever reason... the 308 cycling was affected by the owners weight.
He altered the buffer weight / recoil spring weight and his issue went away.

I don't remember all the specifics, but his weight did factor into the reliable function in that particular instance.
Click to expand...
I'm 5'11" and 210#. But the question is based off the gun being on a sled. No real consideration was given to have the stock firmly rested to the back of the sled.
 
Uffdaphil said:
i’ll agree with your conclusion IF the”guys who made the upper and lower set”, the dealer who rebuilt the thing, and Quintin Defense are the same people. Or did a gun shop dealer build the original rifle from a stripped upper/lower? And then rebuild it? If the latter I’d suspect builder competence over the manufacturer being “out of spec”. AR10s can be tricky to build from scratch.
Click to expand...
The whole rifle was sent to QD. They admit that THEY produced an upper "a bit" out of spec. It was returned with the problem first noted here.
 
Charlie98 said:
Have you tried adjusting the metering?
Click to expand...
Awesome! First new item I'm unaware of. But I'm also quite sure there may be many. Regardless, "Metering?" I had most of this post in Gunsmithing. After exhausting all my efforts, the gun went to the QD. When I got it back all I did was to go and mount and zero scope. There was no way I was going to take it apart again. For those who may have missed this, here's a brief review. BSF barrel was sent back for spec and returned QC'd. Adjustable gas block and three others. Extra AR 10 parts included all parts from a working AR10 by Black Rain. Part by part and in combination. Gas tube length's, bolts, FP's and BCG's in part and combination. Three different triggers. 2 were Timney all for .308. Different spring sets for triggers. Buffer weights and springs. The only thing I did not due, as far as things I could think of doing was to polish the barrel extension. I also took another of QD's uppers and shaved 0.002 in increments to 0.02. I tried cutting back one of the FP's. When I swapped all the parts except the receiver set to the Black Rain, they worked in any and all combinations. I am not a gunsmith nor a highly skilled lathe and mill guy. But I like to learn and I do not like to buy my way out of a problem. I don't how many times I was told the answer was to take it to a qualified gunsmith. Of which there are none anywhere near me. I did meet a nice guy who loves working on Grands.
 
gun'sRgood said:
Awesome! First new item I'm unaware of. But I'm also quite sure there may be many. Regardless, "Metering?" I had most of this post in Gunsmithing.
Click to expand...

I didn't see your post in Gunsmithing... excuse my ignorance and my contribution.

What is an adjustable gas block but an adjustable gas metering port? What term would you use?
 
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gun'sRgood said:
I am not a gunsmith nor a highly skilled lathe and mill guy. But I like to learn and I do not like to buy my way out of a problem. I don't how many times I was told the answer was to take it to a qualified gunsmith.
Click to expand...

Neither am I, but I've built 2 AR-10's that worked marvelously from the start. Maybe, since you like to see how things work and gain experience from it, tear it apart yourself and rebuild it piece by piece...
 
Charlie98 said:
Neither am I, but I've built 2 AR-10's that worked marvelously from the start. Maybe, since you like to see how things work and gain experience from it, tear it apart yourself and rebuild it piece by piece...
Click to expand...
Sure. gas metering port it is. Unconventional terminology? As mentioned, I put this thing together many times with an abundance of parts.
 
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