I watched the video, and two things spring to mind. Firstly, we all heard a lot of shots that were fired. And clearly, at least one of the shots eventually took down the guy. But we don’t know how many shots were fired, and how many of those were hits, or where the hits were. And lastly - huge kudos to the officer. He held his fire for a long time giving that guy every chance to back down - at risk to himself. And while we can debate the nuances, the officer did stop the threat. He did a great job while under extreme stress.
As seen here, some people can be hard to stop.
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Pudge
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The officer started from a rested position with cover which was estimated to be 7 yards. Other than the rest and cover, not significantly different from the Texas church shooting. Whether in each of those incidents the shooter hit a critical body element by chance, I'm not going to argue. The police officer relied on his training and the result was very effective.
headshots are not always realistic. This guy very well may have felt like he was missing the shots altogether. The reaction was pretty week. Any normal person who dumps a gun into an animal and see's no reaction has to think they may be missing. The idea of switching to a much harder target to hit, and one that is much faster moving is just stupid. Add to that the building in the way, and high probability every person in the building is glued to their windows, and would easily die if you put a bullet through one. A sane person in this situation will go for the "sure thing" rather than the "best thing".
Looking back in review, yea, a headshot would have ended it quicker, but no way of knowing what the shooter was thinking seeing the bulletproof armed man. The fact you can clearly tell he's not wearing armor of any kind is a huge psychological effect when your last resort has no effect, leaving you to conclude your will run out of ammunition with no hits, or the pistol just doesn't work.
Lastly, a headshot at that distance would probably be possible, but there's no telling if the shooter had intended it, but couln't focus well enough with all of the distraction. The guy is clearly fighting tunnel vision, and aiming a rested pistol on a car, and trying to make a focused headshot, with screaming from multiple directions, and presumably bystanders in the window would be very difficult to keep aware of your surrounding.
Looking back in review, yea, a headshot would have ended it quicker, but no way of knowing what the shooter was thinking seeing the bulletproof armed man. The fact you can clearly tell he's not wearing armor of any kind is a huge psychological effect when your last resort has no effect, leaving you to conclude your will run out of ammunition with no hits, or the pistol just doesn't work.
Lastly, a headshot at that distance would probably be possible, but there's no telling if the shooter had intended it, but couln't focus well enough with all of the distraction. The guy is clearly fighting tunnel vision, and aiming a rested pistol on a car, and trying to make a focused headshot, with screaming from multiple directions, and presumably bystanders in the window would be very difficult to keep aware of your surrounding.
Pudge
Member
I am not second-guessing the officer's actions. But everything you discussed was a factor in the Texas church shooting. All I am saying is that caliber and shot volume are not substitutes for shot placement.
If the perpetrator had unloaded his handgun into the woman, officer or bystander while staggering after being shot I still wouldn't second guess the officer. The officer had the opportunity to aim for CNS, and didn't. The officer faced something truly horrible, protected everyone, and gave the perpetrator every opportunity to surrender. This is not a critique of the officer's actions.
If you think shot placement is mere chance and secondary to shot volume, we disagree. If you think I should be proud of that officer's actions we agree.
If the perpetrator had unloaded his handgun into the woman, officer or bystander while staggering after being shot I still wouldn't second guess the officer. The officer had the opportunity to aim for CNS, and didn't. The officer faced something truly horrible, protected everyone, and gave the perpetrator every opportunity to surrender. This is not a critique of the officer's actions.
If you think shot placement is mere chance and secondary to shot volume, we disagree. If you think I should be proud of that officer's actions we agree.
The issue, here, is folks discard reams of empiric data, and are embracing the few rare exceptions, where folks not only got shot multiple times, and didn't take a critical
hit, to put them out of action, but also opt to die, rather than quit fighting, and seek medical assistance.
IMO, the information is good to know, but am I going to build my SD paradigm, around these statistical anomalies ?
Like Josey Wales said:
"Dyin' ain't much of a livin'." ...
MZ5
Member
That wasn’t a ‘defensive’ situation at all. It was an offensive police situation. They’re not particularly similar.
Rare?
Has nothing to do with it.
Why would you you characterize use of force incidents involving multiple shots a "statistical anomalies"?
MZ5
Member
No. He was called in to play offense against strangers. That isn’t how you’d handle a genuinely defensive situation with your spouse; not even close.
That ^
Is unrelated to:
"There is nowhere I'd rather defend myself with a pocket 380/38 snub than a Glock 23.
My philosophy: Of the concealable pistols you own, strive to carry the one you would prefer in hand if you had to defend yourself, regardless of location.
For me, Glock 23 minimum."
Defensive use, Glock 23 > 38/380 ... For Me
Brush up on your Fourth Amendment case law and the use of deadly force by law enforcement officers.
Except for a few rare exceptions, not seen here, they may only use deadly force to defend themselves and others.
There are good discussions on the subject here on THR. Read them.
How might you have gone about defending that victim?
MZ5
Member
Kleanbore, it’s okay for you to use your brain and stay on topic. There’s almost nothing about that scenario that particularly resembles the one where you and your spouse are walking along past your idling car with the bad guy 40+ yards away.
You are adding irrelevant conditions. The innocent third party need not be walking with me.
THIINK.
Suppose my spouse or friend were being pursued by an armed man?
Would you characterize my intervention as "offensive"?
Do you know what might constitute the lawful "offensive" use of force by a police officer?
You're putting words in my mouth. The statistical anomalies I was referring to are folks who take multiple hits, decide their life isn't worth trying to save, and keep on fighting,
in a crazed, or fanatical fashion. The combination of multiple hits/ not falling-stopping/ fanatic resistance is the statistical anomaly, not merely incidents involving multiple shots.
Does it happen ? Yes. Am I going to gear my entire life, around the lightning-striking-thrice chance of being around, when it happens? I think not. A big part of being prepared, generally, is not being over-prepared, specifically.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
An articulate lawyer can paint just the fact that you are shooting at another person as "intent to kill", whether you hit him in the leg or the head. Let that sink in for a minute.
Folks have been shot in the head and lived and shot in the leg and died.
Theres literally a plethora of legitimate SD training institutions that practice head shots.
The intent of a self defender is never "to kill", it's always to STOP THE THREAT. If a head shot does that so be it. It may not, just as any other shot.
It is my opinion that head shots are worthwhile to incorporate in training as they are more likely to stop the threat, especially as an add on to COM shots.
YMMV....
wagonburner
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Whatever …
wagonburner
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Snubnose 38s are a really bad choice for somebody in law enforcement or similar. Chances are you'll need to fire more than 5 rounds.
The average Joe doesn't end up in scenarios like that. That said, part of CCW is to feel secure, so go with what works for you.
5 rounds as a primary.... Nope, nope, nope.
Example #2 where someone takes multiple hits and is not quickly incapacitated:
Thinking of recent history, I have to agree with you. Jack Wilson told us he had to take the head shot due to innocents in the church between him and the attacker.
Thank you for your well developed reply.
Pudge
Member
And years ago, there was a shootout around the corner from where I lived. The guy with the high capacity 9mm got burried, and the one with the little .380 lived. Anecdotal is anecdotal. Studies have been done, and disregarded by those who know better. If you want to prepare for the worst, I would think body armor would be as important as a 3rd magazine. Having a firearm, knowing how to use it, and being willing to use it are in my mind paramount, and will serve you well in most of the very unlikely scenarios where you would need to defend yourself. But stakes being what they are, if you need more effective tools or better training and you're without, you already know better, and have only yourself to blame. We all draw the line somewhere, you're better off listening to those who disagree and making an informed decision about your safety than you are plugging your ears and choosing from a position of intentional ignorance.
How would one distinguish between them?
Zaydok Allen
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These videos are pretty interesting and I think they provide some good examples of extremes. They may be statistical outliers as people point out, but honestly the outliers are what we plan for aren’t they?
The police officer looks to have put multiple well placed hits on the perp and executed the entire encounter very well IMO. But I’m not a cop. I’d be interested to know what type of drugs the perp might have had running through his system. But I guess it’s not really that important overall and no different than considering heavy clothing or other barriers to performance. It’s not like you consider the likelihood or type of drugs an attacker might be on before heading out the door. You carry a gun meant to deal with whatever situation might come your way.
I’ve consistently heard over the years that stats don’t show much difference in common service cartridges for effective stops and that medical professionals don’t note particularly significant differences in wounding pattens regarding those different sized bullets.
While I do head those stats and professional opinions, I am a believer that extra mass is likely to lead to increased potential breakage and penetration on hard structures like spinal columns and other bone, perhaps leading to incapacitation faster. Hunters stand by that and as they actually kill living things regularly I listen. But I’m not going to let that belief limit my capacity to the point I don’t have enough rounds to deal with more than one attacker. I used to carry a 45 regularly but have since switched to 9mm +p for most carry days I’ll be around people. Not all days though.
If a durable predator is my concern then I typically carry a 10mm now. If people, how many potentially? In my situation 1-3 is a reasonable estimate based on the typical group size I see roaming the streets in the nearby city. I’ve become a believer that bullet weight and shot placement/combat accuracy is what’s most important. So 9mm with 124 gr bullets are my bare minimum that I’m comfortable with.
I’m not advocating or suggesting anyone do as I do. I’ve grown tired of the debates on what type of gun and capacity is enough.
The liquor store video is hard to watch though and I think you have to consider capacity seriously in both of these situations. Liquor stores get robbed. It’s not a new thing. How an employer or employer would think a j frame obviously loaded with 38 special would be enough in that setting is beyond me. Even if it was a 357 magnum, I would want a pump shotgun, pistol caliber carbine with a large magazine, or a high capacity all steel pistol that’s easy to get multiple rounds on target with. Not a j frame. At that close of range, head shots are definitely a possibility so the employees were obviously very under trained as well.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a person choosing a large caliber gun so long as it doesn’t reduce capacity to the point that you couldn’t deal with the full range of potential threats you are exposed to. It MAY, in the right circumstance lead to a better outcome.
One thing I think you can take away from the second video is to pay attention to makeshift weaponry all around you. If you’ve emptied your gun and the perp is still mobile and presenting a threat, DON’T stand around. Get away from them or if they have dropped their weapon, advance on them. There’s bottles all over the place in that video to crack that guy in the head with. Surprise and ferocity of attack can throw even a much larger and stronger opponent of guard, especially as a follow up attack. But, I wasn’t there so......
Sorry. Long ramble.
The police officer looks to have put multiple well placed hits on the perp and executed the entire encounter very well IMO. But I’m not a cop. I’d be interested to know what type of drugs the perp might have had running through his system. But I guess it’s not really that important overall and no different than considering heavy clothing or other barriers to performance. It’s not like you consider the likelihood or type of drugs an attacker might be on before heading out the door. You carry a gun meant to deal with whatever situation might come your way.
I’ve consistently heard over the years that stats don’t show much difference in common service cartridges for effective stops and that medical professionals don’t note particularly significant differences in wounding pattens regarding those different sized bullets.
While I do head those stats and professional opinions, I am a believer that extra mass is likely to lead to increased potential breakage and penetration on hard structures like spinal columns and other bone, perhaps leading to incapacitation faster. Hunters stand by that and as they actually kill living things regularly I listen. But I’m not going to let that belief limit my capacity to the point I don’t have enough rounds to deal with more than one attacker. I used to carry a 45 regularly but have since switched to 9mm +p for most carry days I’ll be around people. Not all days though.
If a durable predator is my concern then I typically carry a 10mm now. If people, how many potentially? In my situation 1-3 is a reasonable estimate based on the typical group size I see roaming the streets in the nearby city. I’ve become a believer that bullet weight and shot placement/combat accuracy is what’s most important. So 9mm with 124 gr bullets are my bare minimum that I’m comfortable with.
I’m not advocating or suggesting anyone do as I do. I’ve grown tired of the debates on what type of gun and capacity is enough.
The liquor store video is hard to watch though and I think you have to consider capacity seriously in both of these situations. Liquor stores get robbed. It’s not a new thing. How an employer or employer would think a j frame obviously loaded with 38 special would be enough in that setting is beyond me. Even if it was a 357 magnum, I would want a pump shotgun, pistol caliber carbine with a large magazine, or a high capacity all steel pistol that’s easy to get multiple rounds on target with. Not a j frame. At that close of range, head shots are definitely a possibility so the employees were obviously very under trained as well.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a person choosing a large caliber gun so long as it doesn’t reduce capacity to the point that you couldn’t deal with the full range of potential threats you are exposed to. It MAY, in the right circumstance lead to a better outcome.
One thing I think you can take away from the second video is to pay attention to makeshift weaponry all around you. If you’ve emptied your gun and the perp is still mobile and presenting a threat, DON’T stand around. Get away from them or if they have dropped their weapon, advance on them. There’s bottles all over the place in that video to crack that guy in the head with. Surprise and ferocity of attack can throw even a much larger and stronger opponent of guard, especially as a follow up attack. But, I wasn’t there so......
Sorry. Long ramble.
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JTQ
Member
Here is the one I was thinking about
https://nypost.com/video/armed-robbers-go-after-gun-store-get-shot-by-owners/
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