Asking for insights and suggestions on a gun safe purchase.

[col_temp]

PS Mods if this woudl be in a better place please feel free to move.

OK, I've read the numerous other thread here and elsewhere on this so instead of a big general thread again, i have narrowed the field.
The stack-on safe was fine when i had one handgun some ammo, a lever rifle, a 22 rifle, and a shotgun.
Now I have more and several more expensive guns as well as a lot more ammo. So its time to upgrade. So instead of cheap I want something that will be much more secure for storing.

I have narrowed the field a bit. Would lie the Width to be 32-36"

Current Choices:

1. Liberty Franklin 35. (Basically the Cabela's Signature which is who I would buy it from since I get reward points, discounts etc...)
2. Liberty Lincoln 35 This is the Cabela's Ambassador Safe by Liberty.
3. Liberty Presidential 40
4. Amsec SF6036 (add the 4ga liner or not?)
5. Amsec BF6032 (w/ liner)

Considered Winchester, Rhino and a couple of others. Decided to pass. Would like something a bit beefier than 12 ga steel and drywall.

I'm not too worried about fire rating lasting forever like some of these. figure 40-60 min is just fine.
But I would also like something that is fairly burglar resistant. I know with enough time nothing in the list will make it really secure but want to make it hard enough that they move on!

Questions:
A. Is the 4 ga second layer upgrade on the AmSec worth it? or is the 12 ga layer good enough.
B. Should the Franklin even be on the list for consideration?
Considering the list and requirements any other safe I should add to the list?

Anyone know of another store with good selection of safes to consider near me? (NWSafe is great but they are about 4 hours round trip away.)

Feel free to vote for your selection or another with similar size and cost considerations.

 

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

Iv'e had my Fort Knox for over 30 years. It is a combo spin dial, that is painted as nice as a new car. Get a safe larger than you need as you will out grow it.

 

[Bobson]

None of these are "safes." They're "residential security containers" (RSCs). Two guys with a crowbar each could get into any of the products in your poll in 10 minutes or less. Do a forum search for "RSC" and you'll get some interesting threads by people who work in the industry.

Bottom line: If you're looking for some basic fire protection and a way to keep the kids out, an RSC will work just fine. If you're actually looking for a safe - to keep motivated thieves out - you need something different.

Like this: www.brownsafe.com
Or this: www.graffundersafes.com

But you should know right off the bat that you're looking at serious additional cost when compared to a "pretty nice safe" from Cabela's. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news; but at least now you'll know what you're really buying.

ETA:

If you do buy an RSC, do yourself a favor and have it bolted down to concrete; professionally, if necessary. It may well be the difference between whether it's cracked or not, as it will severely damper a thief's ability to use leverage to get it open.

 

[Captcurt]

As for Fire Ratings

I was told by a former fire chief that a 1200-1400 degree rating is not enough. It might be if the safe is on an outside wall and the fire dept gets it under control in under 30 minutes. I don't know where you live but I live a mile from a fire station and it takes the volunteers 30 minutes to put their boots on.

 

[earlthegoat2]

They can be hard to find but I would try and locate a vintage Mosler or similar that came from a jewelry store or a pawn shop or any business really.

These have better resistance to attack than the ones listed and cost significantly less than a new Brown. It will be harder to find one that is tall enough to hold a rifle but they are out there. If it is old enough then it will be lined with asbestos which has better fire retarding capabilities than any modern product and is still safe since it is fully enclosed in the safes walls.

 

[col_temp]

Yeah I looked at Graffunder,
Look well made but probably need to reinforce the crawl space under the room!
I'll check out Brown for the info, Thanks for the tip about the Mosler. Doubt there are any around but worth looking!

And yes it will be bolted down.

 

[Bobson]

When looking at Brown, look into their HD series. Maybe a bit less gloss and jazz, but all the security of their other products (by rating, of course), and you'll save a bit of money. You could also look at removing the fire protection entirely, and save about $1400 on the cost of the safe. Some people prefer an overhead sprinkler installed above the safe, which may have some merit. Of course, if it's gonna cost $1400 to install the sprinkler (I have no clue what it actually costs), then you're not saving any money at all and its irrelevant.

Personally, I've all but decided on Brown. Now I'm curious, how hard is it to defeat the lock itself (whether keypad or dial)? Doesn't make much sense to buy he most secure box in the world if a rookie with some electronic wizardry can defeat a keypad in 15 minutes. I'm looking into that stuff now.

 

[col_temp]

Hi Bobson,

Search the posts on ar15 or thr. According to several who work in maximum security prisons. Most electronic locks can be defeated in seconds with a 9V battery. The exact methods are not online but from the sounds of it, you basically short circuit the lock, use the base security code and wa-la you are in.
Sounds kinds of similar to my ability to get into your computer in a couple of minutes no matter what your password is if Io can physically access the machine. (reason it take s few minutes is the reboot process for the machine itself. The actual hack takes about 15 seconds.)

Best locks appear to be the mechanical WITH a key. Two layer protection. So for quick access leave the dial set to the opening combo and use the key to access. When you leave the house spin the dial and now it takes both the combo and the key to access.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've looked and researched a great deal over the years. I'm convinced either Fort Knoxx or Sturdy Gun Safes are the way to go. They do protection by lots of steel. A big warning sign to me is when I go to review a gun safe online and the specs make it hard to find the thickness of the steel on door and walls.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Hi Bobson,

Search the posts on ar15 or thr. According to several who work in maximum security prisons. Most electronic locks can be defeated in seconds with a 9V battery. The exact methods are not online but from the sounds of it, you basically short circuit the lock, use the base security code and wa-la you are in.
Sounds kinds of similar to my ability to get into your computer in a couple of minutes no matter what your password is if Io can physically access the machine. (reason it take s few minutes is the reboot process for the machine itself. The actual hack takes about 15 seconds.)

Best locks appear to be the mechanical WITH a key. Two layer protection. So for quick access leave the dial set to the opening combo and use the key to access. When you leave the house spin the dial and now it takes both the combo and the key to access.

For the safe where I keep the bulk, it is purely mechanical. For the one I keep in the bedroom in case of emergency I have an electronic for quick access. Mostly don't trust electronic stuff.

 

[Warp]

AMSEC > Liberty

Don't tell anybody you have it, put it somewhere out of the way and not readily visible, bolt it down. Mechanical locks only (S&G Group II)

 

[leadcounsel]

Look at the Sturdy Safes out of California. They make a very rugged and thick steel fire resistant RSC. They use excellent locking mechanisms, design, etc. It's a no frills safe, but for serious protection. Best value for the money. They have an outstanding reputation for product and customer service. I was so happy with mine I bought another. Call and ask for Terry - the main guy at Sturdy. The advice to buy bigger than you think you need is wise. It's easy to grow into a safe, and start storing more stuff in it that you hadn't considered.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/

I also think the AMSEC RSCs have a good reputation.

I would NOT go with the Liberties and other Chinese boxes, like Cannon, or the Costco ones, etc.

Security is best in layers.

Operational security - keep quiet about your RSC to strangers.
Layered security. Don't post on social media when you are out of town. Put up cameras and security lights.

 

[col_temp]

I'll check out study safe.
Pretty much have ruled out the Liberty safe line.

Now it comes down to RSC vs a real safe. Leaning toward getting a real safe which means one of the following:

AMsec RF6528
Amsec RFX582820
Brown HD7228
Graffunder B6032/7232
Graffunder C6032/7232

May end up going to B7240 or 6040, as they say you do tend to grow into the safe. Already have three safes that are full of stuff. Two barely qualify as RSC and are not gun safes. The other is a cheap something is better than nothing, stack on. The stackon is going to get used for excess ammo and may end up in garage for my reloading stuff. Since its not a fire safe and not air tight will work well for reloading.

 

[Savage99]

My next safe would be one that I can assemble myself where only I know where it is and that I can disassemble myself and move myself should I want to.

Such safes are made by Zanotti, Snap Safe, Champion and perhaps others.

 

[dstegjas]

Liberty Safe Video 1

Liberty Safe Video 2

There is nothing wrong with the liberty safes. I have had a Liberty safe for 15 years now with absolutely no problems (Franklin 45). Here are a couple videos showing them abusing the safes. There are several more showing them dropping, shooting and blowing them up on Youtube. I am not saying they are any better then other safes on the market. I am just saying that they are a good safe that will protect your valuables. I do agree that keeping a mechanical dial is a good idea. I have never been a big fan of the electronic dials. However the old and tired line of 2 guys and a crowbar can break into them is a bunch of garbage.

Jim

 

[Bobson]

However the old and tired line of 2 guys and a crowbar can break into them [Liberty "safes"] is a bunch of garbage.

There are several videos scattered around the Internet Machine in which two men defeat a safe in just a few minutes. Unfortunately, none of them (that I've seen) call out the manufacturer of the safe they demonstrate being defeated. They're just identified as RSCs. A UL-marked RSC only needs to withstand defeat for five minutes, by one attacker equipped with a hammer and crowbar. Liberty, to my knowledge, doesn't make safes. They make RSCs. They're marked as such on the inside frame of the door.

So yeah, you might be correct that Liberty "safes" aren't bad. Maybe they do provide better than the bare minimum protection required for UL. But it's an awful lot of money to drop on a product just hoping it's better than it's manufacturer can legally admit to.

 

[Bobson]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ltK-bDbADa8

This is a pretty interesting video. Sharing it here just as a source of info. IIRC, it's called "Gun Safes - The Truth." A guy who runs a store that specializes in safes walks around his store talking about certain features, pros and cons, different brands, safes versus RSCs, etc. Pretty neat video, but also long (27 mins or so).

 

[col_temp]

Great video, A little long but does have some good info.

As an aside. His statement about Electronic locks is basically junk. Most can be easily defeated by those in the know.
Save the electronic for the quick grab safe. (Or the other storage safes at the end. Did like those!)

 

[col_temp]

http://www.graffundersafes.com/gallery-video.html

Looks like a liberty safe they attacked!

 

[dstegjas]

Actually Col_Temp, the only names you can make out on the small video screen are Graffunder and Champion. I'm not sure if that is intentional or not. I did not see the name "Liberty Safe" on any of them. You did bring up a good point that many of the safes do look alike from the outside.

I know this is a topic that goes around most gun forums. And I certainly am not trying to start an argument. Maybe the question should be this. Has anyone personally had their safe broken into in their home. If so, what brand was it and did they gain entry. I have been very lucky and not had my home broken into. So I can not speak from experience on that question.

Jim

 

[a1abdj]

Now it comes down to RSC vs a real safe. Leaning toward getting a real safe which means one of the following:

AMsec RF6528
Amsec RFX582820
Brown HD7228
Graffunder B6032/7232
Graffunder C6032/7232

Comparing some of those is sort of apples and lemons due to the huge difference in security ratings.

But since you're already within the realm of UL burglary rated safes, you're missing out on others that are worth considering. There are other TL-15 and TL-30 burglary rated gun safes not on your list.

I have just about given up on providing specific details online, since it only seems to drive people to do business with online retailers. I would suggest contacting a local safe and vault company and seeing what they can do for you. If you need a referral to one of these types of companies near you, let me know.

 

[X-Rap]

There is no doubt that the advise given beyond your individual choice of safe/rsc is probably as important as the unit itself.

Leverage and the room to use it is your enemy. Bolt down and locate in a way that is difficult to attack the opening side of the door frame.

Minimize who knows that you have it and where it is.

If you can locate in a dedicated room you can add fire resistance and security measures there that will enhance those of your safe.


I would also like to hear from those who have had their safes broken into and hear the specifics of location, bolting, brand, and the suspected tools and method.
I think a lot of what is found online is advertisement and promotion since few of us would intentionally waste the thousands of dollars required to simply demonstrate for the good of the public. (although I'm sure criminals find them educational)
I also have doubts about how easy the average burglar can compromise a quality RSC that has adequate countermeasures employed and the number of those criminals that have specifically trained themselves in all the weaknesses and strengths of the various brands.
Much advise is given with regards to buying big and growing into it I agree to a point but I also believe that your chances of retaining your valuables increase with the number of units that need to be broken into.(I'd hold a 24 gun capacity as a minimum but seriously consider 3 or 4 of them if needed) Beyond that I'd skip the fancy paint and electronic locks and ultimately understand that the best Safe is worthless if someone has a gun to your wife or kids head and wants in bad enough.

 

[col_temp]

Thanks a1adbj,

I know the feeling and have seen all the back and forth on this and a couple of others I understand where you are coming from.
BTW I have been in touch with Jim off line. I'm likely to stick local though I may get something from him. Still zeroing in on size (32/36/40 wide), location (where in the office or ??) and options (B class, c-class, e/f class, Probably B/C is good enough, Glass re-lockers, lighting, dehumidifier rod, layout, etc...)

I know about NWSafe that is about 2 hours south of me. Anyone else you know of in the North Seattle WA area? I would be looking whether I bought something from you or CB900F or ??? as I 'm not going to even try to install a real safe myself let alone try to move it!
PM me with what you brands you sell and who you know or associate with.

Thanks for all the great advise you have provided over time on the forum. There are those of us who do actually read and investigate. I have learned a great deal over the last week or so between several of you here and on my local forum.

 

[CB900F]

Graffunder is, sorta, local to you. They are made in Yakima Washington.

900F

 

[col_temp]

Follow up construction technique question

Follow up question about the way a safe is constructed. What are the benefits and drawbacks of the various ways manufacturers put their safes together. (I have some ideas but thought I would see what others thought as well. )

Which is better (or are they basically the same)?

(1) A safe with .125 steel outside skin, composite fire, and .125 steel inner
OR
(2) A safe with .25 steel outside skin, composite fire, and .075 steel inner
OR
(3) A safe with .105 steel outside, composite, .075 steel (Imbedded), composite, .135 steel inner
OR
(4) A safe with .105 outside steel, composite, .25 inner steel

For the others looking this is really a comparison between the advantages and disadvantages of the way safes are made in terms of Burglary protection.
The fire protection will be approximately the same for all of these.
The safes in mind are a generic B class safe, B class Graffunder, B class Amsec (American Security RF series), Class B Brown

All three provide close to the same total of steel. Assuming the composite used is roughly equivalent in terms of protection which scheme is likely more secure and why?