ASSAULT ON WACO: Discovery Channel Documentary

[Firehand]

As I recall, when someone suggested that some outside experts should examine the firearms to determine if any had been illegally modified, Schumer had a cow; couldn't stand the very idea of someone, I have to put it this way, outside government control, closely examining them.

 

[saltydog]

Help me out here -- just what was it that the Branch Davidians did? What crimes did they commit?

Good point. The only thing I see here is a bunch of "hear say."

I'm going over to Rifle Country.

 

[GEM]

There is a great book on the incident from an anthropologist who studied religious cults and how the ATF and FBI totally misread the situation. They ignored the advice from their own behavioral and religious experts on how to end the siege. The siege/hostage tactics used were designed for the schmuck who gets stuck in a bank or 7/11 when a robbery goes wrong. They were totally inappropriate for a group like the Davidians. However, the tactical folks were of a 'follow the book' mentality and wouldn't listen.

I don't have the reference handy but it's easy to find on Amazon. The bottom line is that different tactics and a longer time line might have resolved it. Changes were made so later incidents with similar groups had a better outcome.

It does bring up the point that if people don't have flexibility in thought during such situations, then can go bad. Unfortunately, the ATF and FBI didn't have such.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I was in the International Secure Area at Dulles when I saw the TV with the burning buildings at Waco. I was headed for England to work a project there -- and the whole time I was there, I got my ears filled with comments by the SAS about the bumbling FBI.

 

[AZLibertarian]

I meant to, but got distracted from watching the show. From what I'm gathering from those here who did watch, I can't say I'd have learned much by watching.

However, IMO, the best book on the topic of Waco is Kopel and Blackman's What's Wrong with Federal Law Enforcement, and How to Fix It. It was years ago that I read it, but I do remember that it is filled with more footnotes than most of my college texts. It does not paint a flattering picture of either the ATF's or the FBI's performance. If you're after a scholarly look at Waco, and the extension of other federal law enforcement (especially from a pre-9/11 view), then I can recommend the book.

Edit: You can read the prologue to the book here.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Help me out here -- just what was it that the Branch Davidians did? What crimes did they commit?

They failed to pay for a tax stamp or three. Simple. Same as if I fail to pay the King's taxes on my house. Eventually, taken far enough, I would either be imprisoned, burned alive, or riddled with bullets.
Women and children burned alive over the NFA of '34, and huge egos within federally funded agencies. Shameful.

From the footage I have seen of Koresh, he strikes me as no less reasonable than anyone else with a strong belief in their invisible friend, myself included. It just seems his invisible friend was easy to vilify, being so different from the norm. Same as mine.

When it comes down to it, Waco was a show of force by the federal government, meant to teach a lesson. Perhaps not at the higher levels, but somebody down there was furious when the peasants didn't roll over.....

 

[buzz_knox]

They failed to pay for a tax stamp or three.

Tax stamps are required for NFA weapons. If there were no NFA weapons, no tax stamp was required.

As for Koresh, he was a class A nutjob. No question about that. And eventually there was a bit of evidence that he liked his girls . . . young.

 

[Biker]

Yup, if they hadn't burned and shot up them thar kids, who *knows whut myda happened!*

Biker

 

[buzz_knox]

Yup. Koresh might have been tried and convicted, rather than summarily executed. And yes, I know that the story is the BDs set the fire. But given the perjury that's already occurred, I'm willing to entertain the idea the fire was caused by one of the CS grenades the Fibbies swore up and down they never used . . . until the grenades were found.

My statement about Koresh dealt with the idea that he was in some way reasonable. Regardless of how he died and any outrage concerning the actions that led to said death, I can't really find it in myself to give a crap about him. I trust that he found out if he was the messiah or not . . . and I trust that he didn't like the answer.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Tax stamps are required for NFA weapons. If there were no NFA weapons, no tax stamp was required.

As for Koresh, he was a class A nutjob. No question about that. And eventually there was a bit of evidence that he liked his girls . . . young.

Yep, should have said that he "allegedly" failed to pay for a tax stamp or three.

As far as liking his girls "young", I've heard that. Hoever, so far as I know, it has yet to be proven. That said, if he was molesting young girls, I still say they'd be better off than burned alive.

Koresh may or may not have been a nutjob. Not for me to cast stones. Hell's Bells, if folks on this board knew my religion of choice, a large percentage of them might classify me as a "nutjob", as well. It all comes down to one's choice of invisible friends.

 

[AZLibertarian]

...As far as liking his girls "young", I've heard that. Hoever, so far as I know, it has yet to be proven....

As I said earlier, it's been some time since I read the book, but IIRC, the questions about Koresh's relationships with the teenaged girls at Mt. Carmel had been previously looked into by the Texas state authorities with no charges filed.

Related: Since when are charges of child endangerment or statutory rape in the jurisdiction of any federal agency, much less the ATF?

 

[FTF]

I missed the last half hour, but I thought the first 1.5 hours were decent.

I especially respected the fact that the show mentioned how the ATF agents unloaded on the compound after the initial, botched raid... putting rounds downrange into the women and children with no care for target acquisition. Of course, I'm no fan of any kind of killing, but I've always wondered why the cops were arbitrarily firing from outside the compound with rifles and pistols when they obviously had no real target. That needed to be said.

And why was it on a Sunday? What kind of dumbass government drone thinks that raiding a religious sect on a Sunday afternoon will reduce the chances of women and children being there? It was a church!!!!

To be fair, Koresh should have removed every woman, child and unwilling male member, forcibly if needed, from that compound as soon as the firing stopped... he would have def had more of the moral high ground.

Did a lot more bad than good no matter how you slice it. Could have been handled a lot better and I wish more heads would have rolled. As a result, I do not trust the ATF... in fact, I tend to agree with the JBT and unconstitutional camp that abounds on this board... and yes, that extends to every day LEO's.. I don't trust them either.. guilt by association... voluntary or not. Watching that documentary reminded me of why I never re-enlisted in the marines...

 

[Derby FALs]

And why was it on a Sunday? What kind of dumbass government drone thinks that raiding a religious sect on a Sunday afternoon will reduce the chances of women and children being there? It was a church!!!!

Branch Davidians keep the biblical Sabbath, not Sunday.

 

[DMF]

As far as liking his girls "young", I've heard that. Hoever, so far as I know, it has yet to be proven.

One of the many lies told about Howell (aka Koresh) is that the allegations of child molestation have never been proven. They have in fact been proven, including Howell himself admitting on videotape during the seige to fathering children with several girls who were under age 16.

"Koresh acknowledged on a videotape sent out of the compound during the standoff that he had fathered more than 12 children by several "wives" who were as young as 12 or 13 when they became pregnant."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten.html#branch

Further, Kiri Jewell testified to Congress that she was 10 the first time Howell had sex with her. Also, DNA testing showed that 4 year old Serenity Sea Jones, the daughter of 18 year old Michele Jones, both of whom died in the fire, had been fathered by Howell. That means Michele was 14 when she gave birth to Howell's baby.

 

[DMF]

In addition the lie I exposed in the preceding post there are several other lies told about Waco in effort push an agenda of bashing the ATF, and the government in general.

Several people claim there was no evidence of illegal firearms at the Branch Davidian compound. That is completely false. Graeme Craddock exited the compound with an illegal destructive device (hand grenade) in his pocket. He was later convicted of illegally possessing a destructive device. Even if you want to ignore Paul Fatta's conviction for conspiring to manufacture and possess machine guns, there is no way to get around the live grenade Craddock had. However, both Craddock and Fatta were determined by a jury to have committed violations of federal firearms laws. To say the defense did not have an opportunity to examine the evidence that was presented by the prosecution is a bald faced lie. Anyone who makes that claim must pretend that the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure regarding discovery were ignored by the trial judge.

 

[DMF]

For those that actually want the facts read the "Danforth Report."

Retired Republican Senator John Danforth was appointed as Special Counsel to investigate Waco.

His investigation was extremely thorough. Look for the full final report, including appendices A through N, and attachments. Some only read the interim report, or read the final report, but not the appendices and attachments.

Most blindly attack the report after reading only the Conclusions section, but do not actually read the report to determine how the investigation arrived at those conclusions.

 

[bogie]

I've got a couple of "hand grenades" in my basement. They have lampshades on top of 'em, and when you flip the switch, they light up.

I find it VERY interesting that the premier photo ops never took place. We never saw pictures of the "bullet ridden" vehicles, etc., etc... If there was any sorta shootout, you'd think that trucks and cattle trailers, etc., woulda caught a few rounds, right?

I think that F-Troop screwed the pooch, and then attempted a coverup.

 

[DMF]

I've got a couple of "hand grenades" in my basement. They have lampshades on top of 'em, and when you flip the switch, they light up.

Well unlike your "grenades," the one Craddock had was actually a destructive device, not a novelty lamp.

 

[Master Blaster]

One of the many lies told about Howell (aka Koresh) is that the allegations of child molestation have never been proven. They have in fact been proven, including Howell himself admitting on videotape during the seige to fathering children with several girls who were under age 16.

SO?????

The ATF was not there to enforce child welfare laws.

Oh wait DMF just proved they were bad evil people and deserved to be executed by the ATF. Heck even the victims deserved to be shot gassed and burned too.

 

[KMKeller]

And why was it on a Sunday? What kind of dumbass government drone thinks that raiding a religious sect on a Sunday afternoon will reduce the chances of women and children being there? It was a church!!!!

I believe the original intent was to go in on a Monday when everyone was mostly out, but that the numbnut who wrote the warrant got the date wrong. When they realized that the date was wrong, instead of getting the warrant redone, the instead chose to move the raid up one day, to Sunday.

 

[LAK]

Koresh could have been quietly scooped up on one of his town forays - as could any other key suspects. Had there been any tangible evidence that he was guilty of any actual crime.

Instead, alot of innocent men, women and child were burned or suffocated to death because of the arrogance of a government and it's agencies. The agents who died were also killed for the same reason. That's the bottom line.

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[DWARREN123]

This is why we have the 2A, to protect ourselves from the (our) government.
No matter who started it it was a bad scenario from the get go. Should have been done with local people with Fed back up only as the local PD had gone there before with no problem.
Just my opinion.

 

[Art Eatman]

This has become a discussion of Waco, not a discussion of the merits of the TV program. Lots of previous discussion about Waco; use the Search function. Feel free to start a new discussion at APS if you so desire...

Art