At War on the Border (AZ) (Long, and a Maalox Alert)

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I dont want to shoot no poor Mojados like 444 described, I'd do (and done) the same. That said I'd shoot any Mexicans carrying G-3's and say "alto" later. We will NOT be man hunting. Just a patriotic armed presense to stir up our gubmint to action-one way or another!:cool:
 
It gets better..

Mexico bypassing
U.S. sovereignty?
Forms 'representative' council north of border to assist emigres

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 27, 2002
5:00 p.m. Eastern


By Jon Dougherty
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

The Mexican government has formed a 100-member council in the United States comprised of U.S. residents whose stated mission is to advise Mexico City on the needs of its 9.5 million citizens living north of the border – legal and illegal.

Carlos Flores Vizcarra, Mexico's consul in Tucson, told the Arizona Daily Star the committee was a "representative entity" set up to "voice the concerns of the Mexicans who are here" in the U.S.

But critics of the committee say it is an attempt by Mexico to bypass U.S. sovereignty and set up representative branch of the Mexican government on U.S. soil.

"I think in general what the Mexican government wants is a joint sovereignty with the United States over Mexican nationals living in this country," Steven Camarota, research director of the Center for Immigration Studies – a group that favors restricted immigration – told the paper.

Vizcarra discounted that, saying the committee was not "a House of Representatives" or "a parliamentary assembly."

And Cándido Morales, director of the Mexican government's Institute of Mexicans Abroad, said one of the committee's functions is "to tell us what government programs that are targeted to their benefit in the United States are working, and which ones are not."

One example, he said, is the Mexican government's literacy program, which provides books to U.S.-based Mexican communities. And, he said, groups like Arizona's Yaquis could seek the committee's intervention in securing permission to cross the border to bring donated materials to the Yaquis in Sonora, Mexico.

Despite those explanations, however, there are other hints that the council may be more of a U.S.-based entity representative of the Mexican government. If nothing else, it seems to have the official backing of Mexico City.

The paper said seats on the council were distributed in proportion to the concentrations of Mexican nationals living in the U.S. Members were not chosen by election; they were selected by Mexico's consulates.

Also, the council itself will be chaired by Mexican President Vicente Fox and will feature representatives from Mexico's government ministries. Vizcarra said the representatives will serve as contacts for solving problems.

Glenn Spencer, an immigration reform activist, said he believes the council is a veiled attempt by Mexico to increase its power and influence in the U.S. He has called the new committee a "colonization council" and its members "Mexican agents."

He also linked the formation of the council to ongoing efforts by Mexico to establish a system in which Mexican nationals residing in the U.S. can cast absentee ballots in Mexican elections.

Currently, the Arizona Daily Star reported, the Mexican congress is considering proposals that would grant those voting rights. Mexican lawmakers are also considering a bill that would form a Mexican congressional district encompassing the entire United States.

U.S. Census Bureau figures estimate that 5 million Mexican-born U.S. residents are in the country legally, compared to about 4.5 million who reside here illegally.

Poverty and joblessness south of the border drives much of the illegal immigration to the United States, but a Mexican government report said earlier this year that even if the Mexican economy were to blossom, massive illegal immigration is still "inevitable."

"The migratory phenomenon between Mexico and the United states is structural and permanent," said a study by Mexico's National Population Council, a ministry of the Interior agency.

The report, entitled, "Migration: Mexico-United States," says regardless of improvements to Mexico's economy, by 2030 the Mexican-born U.S. population will at least double to 16 million to 18 million.

"Diverse factors such as geographic proximity, the asymmetrical and growing economic integration and intense relations and exchanges between both countries make the creation of migratory flow inevitable," said the report.

The report was published a year ago but ignored in the U.S. until David Simcox, board chairman of the nonprofit Center for Immigration Studies, produced an analysis and summary of the document for the Washington Times in March.
 
So why not militarize the border?

Let's end the charade of cops and robbers out there. The southern border has long since ceased to be a "police" problem and it is now very much like a military problem. We do not need to investigate drug smuggling and coyotes, we need to simply stop them from crossing.

The 38th parallel inbetween North and South Korea is a prime example of a difficult border crossing. Yes, the Southwest is a mite bigger than the width of the Korean peninsula, but damn, isn't that what deep minefields with concertina and huge warning signs about deadly force are for? Condemn the first 500 meters of the American side of the border and make it really impassable. Funnel everybody through actual border city checkpoints.
 
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A cynic might describe the border situation as less government arrogance or indifference or even political vote-pandering and more a deliberate attempt, using malfeasance, to force the average citizen to take action. A cynic might expect the Great White Father in D.C. to use the ensuing confrontations to discredit a) alleged "vigilantism," b) the concept of an out-of-control grass-roots militia, and c) citizen ownership of firearms. A cynic might believe that the War on Terror will be used to justify silencing and disarming critics of policies designed to shore up political power. A cynic might assume that when the Feds DO show up, they will be flying the Flag of Compassion--that's the one with the barbecue tools crossed over the stars and stripes--and make sure no nasty business is being done to our good brothers to the South.

It will take a whole lot o' shakin' goin' on to get the pols that can do something to pay attention to such small issues as sovreignty and the rule of law. Those have been proven mighty inconvenient for career politicians. One guy out of 500 is listening--that's Tancredo--and both parties, not to mention local pols and media types and pressure groups, want his scalp. The voice of the people is going to have to raised to a shout if this whole thing isn't to blow up in our faces.
 
The US has long since signed into land mine agreement so that ends that option. A physical barrier is possible and is a whole lot cheaper than feeding and giveing free medical care to an out of control population. You dispatch gun ships stationed at points minutes away to respond to sensor violations. First dozen or so hosed by miniguns and the problem will go away forever. Except at Bush's Barbques with Fox, UN commies, Democrat commies and aclu pukes , but they will always be whining about something anyway so screw them. In the big picture a couple dozen pushed back to border in body bags is a lot more humanitarian than the hundreds that die each year illeagally crossing. We'd actually be doing Mex a favor.
 
ahenry: Re the border Patrol personnel increases: In Texas, we got 110 newbies, fresh from training school. They're so young and purty! Problem is, at the same time, 100 experienced BP officers have applied to the Sky Marshall program.

Duh?

For the Belway Bandits, the problem is politickal. If you crack down on illegals, the Political Class of Latin Extraction screams "Racism!". The Republicans are trying to reach out for the "Mexican" vote, so they rollover for the PCLE same-o same-o as little puppy dogs wanting a belly-rub.

Folks like Peter Jennings, et al, are unaffected, so it's no big deal to the Chattering & Nattering Class.

Art
 
ahenry: Re the border Patrol personnel increases: In Texas, we got 110 newbies, fresh from training school. They're so young and purty! Problem is, at the same time, 100 experienced BP officers have applied to the Sky Marshall program.
I know it. It’n it th’ damndest thing? I could go on and on about problems that caused the massive move of BPA to FAM’s. Regardless, the point remains that new Border Patrol Agents are being hired, and there is an increasing presence on the border. It just takes time. Did you know that there were 92,000 (yep, you read that correct) applicants to the Border Patrol for this past Fiscal Year? Of those 92,000 only a hair over 2,000 made it all the way through the process (hiring standards didn't change, and they shouldn't). Compound that with the length of time for background investigations and training of those potential agents and you have a long process. Patience.
 
Ok then how about

Originally posted by AZTOY
Sorry this will not work.:( The ground is so hard out here in AZ that it would take days to dig a big hole. :D
SHOOT. BACKHOE. SHUTUP?
WOULD THAT WORK?
 
A lot of good points made.

BUT!

In my opinion, the real bad guys, are those A-holes in DC. They are only doing what will get them re-elected. They get big money from corporate America in one fashion or another, regardless of what campaign finance laws say.

Another entity that has a tremendous fault in this mass immigration is corporate America. Go to any hotel, motel, casino and see who is working there.

Damn near all fast food joints are 80% illegals,
70% to 80% of all construction, landscaping and
any other work which involves manual labor is illegals.

And the third turd, is Vincente Fox and the rest of those rich bastards that have been running that country for the last 250 years.

They know damn well the only way to avert a revolution, is to push the population to the north, kinda like a pop-off valve on a hot water heater. They have no need to create an economy, we (the US) have been subsidizing them SOBs for 100 years.

Those poor ignorant mexicans who cross to make a better life, are only doing what is natural to man, trying to survive.

We need to put the pressure on the US bureacracy, US corporations, and Mr Fox and friends to quell this tide.

On a side note, I am sure the FBI, INS, and BP have already infiltrated these border protection groups.


IMHO

waterdog
 
its a crime?

I am glad that somebody is standing up. More of us need to do the same.
 
Major problems here in El Paso Sector. La Migra
is simply not "holding the line" as they like to call it. I think instead they are holding up the fence to allow the wets to crawl under. Surprised that water and taco stands have not sprung up by enterpriseing BP entrepreneurs. Can no longer go four wheeling or quail hunting out west of town in southern New Mexico without being armed to the teeth. Mexican Army is running drugs and shooting up our La Migra on ocsasion. Bush is more concerned with kissing Fox's political ass than he is in protecting US property and peoples. Pandering to buy votes....maybe....For those not close to the problem the US Army already has helocopter gunships along the border to backstop the Border Patrol. Gets really hot on occasion. El Paso Sector turns back about 35,000 a month caught illegally. Can you imagine what gets on by...you simoly would not believe. And the government could care less. Too much paperwork.
 
Originally posted by waterdog
A lot of good points made.

BUT!

In my opinion, the real bad guys, are those A-holes in DC. They are only doing what will get them re-elected. They get big money from corporate America in one fashion or another, regardless of what campaign finance laws say.

Another entity that has a tremendous fault in this mass immigration is corporate America. Go to any hotel, motel, casino and see who is working there.

Damn near all fast food joints are 80% illegals,
70% to 80% of all construction, landscaping and
any other work which involves manual labor is illegals.

And the third turd, is Vincente Fox and the rest of those rich bastards that have been running that country for the last 250 years.

They know damn well the only way to avert a revolution, is to push the population to the north, kinda like a pop-off valve on a hot water heater. They have no need to create an economy, we (the US) have been subsidizing them SOBs for 100 years.

Those poor ignorant mexicans who cross to make a better life, are only doing what is natural to man, trying to survive.

We need to put the pressure on the US bureacracy, US corporations, and Mr Fox and friends to quell this tide.

On a side note, I am sure the FBI, INS, and BP have already infiltrated these border protection groups.


IMHO

waterdog
along with reading our posts.
 
I got the sh*t scared out of me by one of the helocopter gunships. I was on a dirt road going to the lake by my house. I was going around a turn and there was the gunship, it was look right at me. The pilot hovered there a second and then took off.

:eek:
 
I'm sure the "gunship" was there to see if you were backhoeing in the mass grave. Then the U.N. can send inspectors as in Balkans. After all the object of the Govt. is to "balkanize" the country. Can you imagine the weenie thats assigned to reading our posts. I bet it could put pee-wee Herman to shame. I'll bet its not human even, more like a feces.:mad:
 
Gordon
I don't have a backhoe:( . I would like to get one, but thay cost alot of money.

Can you imagine the weenie thats assigned to reading our posts.

I hope the weenie is working for Vincente Fox . Fox need to know we are tired of the Mexio's illegals.:mad:
 
"Sorry this will not work. The ground is so hard out here in AZ that it would take days to dig a big hole. "


Damn.....guess this means that hungry gators and crawfish are out too!


(Seriously............I saw some crawfish in a pond reduce a good sized cottonmouth (I shot it) to bones in less than an hour.) HUMMMMMMMMMM a few sacks...................I wonder?
 
Tree Hugging Wackos wanted to reintroduce the Mexican Grey Wolf....now the Wolf food is available if the Coyotes don't get it first. Maybe those greenies have an idea....sorry no gators as there is precious little water.
 
In AZ, it really depends on where your digging.

Out in the flats, it aint to bad. If you have to dig near some rock formations (mountains), it can get really hard. We also have caleche, I really don't know what it's made of, but that is some hard s**t to dig. Wear out a set of bits, on a hoe in a day.

AZ was mostly ocean bottom back in day, so most of it is sandy, with little clay.

So if anybody out there has to bury somethin, do it out in the flats.

waterdog
 
Is it possible, just possible the ruling class is out of touch with their low-life, tax-paying voters?

Interesting you should ask the question. I just found this poll showing a huge gap between what the ruling class thinks and the taxpayer.



http://newswithguts.com/article.asp?art_id=2002_12_13_2_51_4


Public and elites differ sharply on immigration

New survey finds no other issue as divisive
By David M. Bresnahan
Published 12/17/2002 12:01:00 AM


WASHINGTON -- While it has long been suspected that the public and elite opinions differ on the issue of immigration policy, a new survey provides the most compelling evidence yet that an enormous gap exists between the American public and opinion leaders on this issue -- a gap that appears to be widening.

A new report, released today, from the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is the first detailed examination of the immigration-related findings of a recent opinion survey conducted by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations earlier this year.

The survey was based on telephone interviews of ordinary Americans and a cross-section of "opinion leaders," including members of Congress, the Bush administration, church leaders, business executives, union leaders, journalists, academics, and the leaders of major interest groups.

The new CIS report, "Elite vs. Public Opinion: An Examination of Divergent Views on Immigration," by Steven Camarota and Roy Beck, was released at a panel discussion on today at the National Press Club.

The authors of the study were joined on a panel with Scott Rasmussen, president of Scott Polls, a leading political polling firm, and a frequent commentator for Fox News, CNN, and other national media; and James Gimpel, political scientist at the University of Maryland and co-author of "The Congressional Politics of Immigration Reform."

The report is available on-line click here.

Among the findings in the report:
The gap between the opinions of the American people and their leaders on immigration is enormous. The poll found that 60 percent of the public regards the present level of immigration to be a "critical threat to the vital interests of the United States," compared to only 14 percent of the nation's leadership a 46 percentage-point gap.


The current gap is even wider than the 37 percentage-point difference found in 1998, when 55 percent of the public viewed immigration as a "critical threat," compared to 18 percent of opinion leaders then.


The poll results indicate that there is no other foreign policy-related issue on which the American people and their leaders disagreed more profoundly than immigration. Even on such divisive issues as globalization or strengthening the United Nations, the public and the elite are much closer together than they are on immigration.


The enormous difference between elite and public opinion can also be seen on the specific issue of illegal immigration. The survey found that 70 percent of the public said that reducing illegal immigration should be a "very important" foreign-policy goal of the United States, compared to only 22 percent of those in the elite.
Co-author Roy Beck noted that the poll's findings indicate that "continued deep public dissatisfaction with current immigration policy indicates that this is an issue just waiting for a candidate to champion it and thereby reap a significant political benefit." The is especially true, he said, because, "it could be marketed as 'anti-elite' and more in sync with the American people, a message that has traditionally been well received by voters."

Steven Camarota, the other co-author, pointed out that, "The very large difference between the elite and public opinion makes what has transpired on immigration in recent years much more understandable. It explains why border enforcement increased in the 1990s, but at the same time, enforcement within the United States was phased out. More recently it explains why broad interest group support for an illegal alien amnesty, including the business community and labor unions, has not translated into the passage of an amnesty."

Among other findings in the report:
President Bush's efforts to grant amnesty to illegal immigrants appears to be hurting him politically. While 53 percent of the public said his handling of foreign policy overall was excellent or good, on immigration only 27 percent said his handling of immigration was good or excellent.


When asked a specific question about whether legal immigration should be reduced, kept the same, or increased, 55 percent of the public said it should be reduced, and 27 percent said it should remain the same. In contrast, only 18 percent of opinion leaders said it should be reduced, and 60 percent said it should remain the same. It appears that there was no other issue specific question on which the public and elites differed more widely.


A significant discrepancy also exists with respect to illegal immigration, as when respondents were asked an open ended question "What are the biggest foreign policy problems?" The public ranked illegal immigration sixth of 69 concerns, while elites ranked it twenty-sixth.
WHY DO THE PUBLIC AND ELITES DIFFER? It is not entirely clear why the public and nation's leaders have such different views on immigration. Other areas in which the public and elites disagree are those dealing with protecting the jobs of American workers and economic competition from other countries. This strongly suggests that one of the main reasons ordinary Americans are concerned about immigration is that they fear job competition. Opinion leaders on the other hand are overwhelmingly educated, and compared to the public much more affluent. Thus at least part of the reason for the difference of opinion stems of the class interests of the two groups. However, the huge difference between the public and opinion leaders on the issue is clearly an important social phenomenon in need of further exploration. What we can say from this data is that the gap is large, persistent over time, and seems to be growing.

The complete results of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations survey can be found HERE.
 
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