At what age does a handgun become too old for a ccw?

[Lucky Derby]

The M1911 & M1911A1 pistols were purchased by the US military from 1911 until the end of WWII. These were the standard issue pistol of the US military until the M9 was adopted in 1985. It took well into the 90's for the M9 to completely replace the M1911. That means that the newest M1911A1s were made in 1945. That means that the newest guns were 40-50ish years old and were still in service. I'm sure that many of them were quite a bit older than that.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I personally don't like to carry any guns over 10 years in design or physical specimenal antiquity ala age or condition.

Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO.

YMMV.

I am sorry, that made me blow soda out of my nose!

I took a trip to the range today and fired my carry ammo (5+5 reload) for my early 1950's I-frame Terrier in .38 S&W, which happens to be my favorite mid-bore carry revolver. At 25 feet, 5 rounds SA, 5 rounds DA, all COM on the humanoid target.

Can you ask for anything more?

Meanwhile, the guy in the next stall had a new .40 cal Gen 4 Glock XX? that was shooting shotgun patterns and jamming about twice per mag on 165 gr FMJ WWB.

 

[Lucky Derby]

I personally don't like to carry any guns over 10 years in design or physical specimenal antiquity ala age or condition.

Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO.

YMMV.

This is a joke, right?

 

[ljnowell]

This is a joke, right?

No all of us "tactical ccw operators" have to have the latest greatest to keep up with gangbangers and their 338 Papua magnums that we may have to take multiple rounds from.

 

[tarosean]

Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO

Gecko is that you???

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO.

"leagues ahead"?

Unless you're talking about some SciFi dream pistol with an infinate repeater magazine, variable on-demand projectile feature, and automatic targeting with IFF capability, there is not one single pistol on the market today which has significantly advanced and improved pistol design and operation over the last century, especially those already established.

Not one.

The market is vicious at weeding out the bad apples from the bunch, when it comes to reliable function.

In the end, all that matters is that the gun goes "BANG!" whenever you pull the trigger and you can hit the target.

Out of this incredible mix of choices made available over the last century+, one should be able to find at least one which fits their hand and their need.

 

[Joe Demko]

All that notwithstanding, there have been advances in metallurgy, materials, and manufacture in my lifetime that made guns a reality that would not have been possible when I was a kid. For an example, look at any of the lightweight, pocket-sized 9mm automatics. I am 52 and it was well into my adulthood before pistols like that became a reality. Previously, the closest thing would have been something like the hard-to-find, pricey, delicate, and finicky Seecamp .32. 9mm was a a full-size service pistol round and people complained about it destroying alloy framed guns pretty quickly.
Guns work on the same principles they always have, but let's not go too far in proclaiming they haven't changed

 

[mavracer]

My 1903 Colt pocket auto was made in 1906, I'll let you know when I quit trusting it.
and welcome

 

[CWL]

I just want to mention that the Corvette came out the same year as the OP's Manurhin PP.

Given the proper care and service, I don't think anyone would mind driving one of those classics around.

 

[tarosean]

All that notwithstanding, there have been advances in metallurgy, materials, and manufacture in my lifetime that made guns a reality that would not have been possible when I was a kid.

I think you'll find that CCW laws being enacted/bans lifted is the main motivator in the small pistol market not materials, etc..

Gun companies didn't have a reason to scale down their pistols till the mid to late 80's when states started allowing CCW. Most of us couldn't carry, or carried open where allowed.

 

[Buzznrose]

I personally won't carry any gun between 13 and 19 years old, as my experience has taught me that teenagers are too dang unreliable and hard to get them to do what you need done!

Once the hit 20 or so, them tend to smarten up...

Or is that just my kids (and me if I remember correctly). LOL!

Seriously, I agree with the majority...if it is maintained and fed good ammo, and you carry and shoot it well, pack it in good health!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Heh! Troublesome teenage guns! I like that!

 

[mavracer]

I personally don't like to carry any guns over 10 years in design or physical specimenal antiquity ala age or condition.

I'd like to know where there's a gun that has design features that are less that 10 years old.

I myself would rather have a baseball bat or crowbar next to the bed! I for one couldn't imagine trying to defend my life with such a useless weapon.

I'm thinking I'd just as soon have an empty Walker replica as a crow bar and loaded it's a no brainer.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"such a useless weapon" indeed!

 

[Lucky Derby]

I'd like to know where there's a gun that has design features that are less that 10 years old.


I'm thinking I'd just as soon have an empty Walker replica as a crow bar and loaded it's a no brainer.

Yes, an empty Walker would make quite a bludgen.

 

[Joe Demko]

RE: ccw driving the development of small guns.

Small guns have been in demand since the muzzle loading days. Short barreled revolvers have been around since revolvers came to be. They were, and are, popular in serious chamberings. There are mountains of small. 22, .25, .32, and .380 automatics out there going back a century or so.
If you read the gun magazines in the sixties and seventies, you might remember a couple things:
1. Alloy framed 9mms and. 357s had a reputation for a short service life. Writers routinely advised carrying them a lot and shooting them a little, with practice conducted with a steel variant of the gun if available.
2. There were efforts to cut down full-sized guns. The ASP was pretty cool if you remember it. I always thought the P-38 snubby looked kind of goofy and probably didn't conceal any better than a regular model. Clearly, though, there was a market for small automatics in service calibers.

Why wasn't it met? Something like a PF-9 and a .38 snub fill very similar roles. Snubbies have always sold very well. Where was the PF-9 and its ilk through most of the 20th century if alloys, materials, and processes weren't an issue? Even if we hypothesize that Americans preferred revolvers, autos have been quite popular and widely issued in Europe and nobody there built one either.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

There were efforts to cut down full-sized guns. The ASP was pretty cool if you remember it. I always thought the P-38 snubby looked kind of goofy and probably didn't conceal any better than a regular model. Clearly, though, there was a market for small automatics in service calibers.

Why wasn't it met? Something like a PF-9 and a .38 snub fill very similar roles. Snubbies have always sold very well. Where was the PF-9 and its ilk through most of the 20th century if alloys, materials, and processes weren't an issue? Even if we hypothesize that Americans preferred revolvers, autos have been quite popular and widely issued in Europe and nobody there built one either.

You need to look a little further into your research.

The market isn't driven by just what people are capable of making. The market is also hugely influenced by what was hugely popular with the various government agencies.

The revolver was hugely popular in civilian police forces through the 70s and even into the 80s. In the eyes of John Q. Public, "what's good enough for the police must be good enough for me". Automatics started making inroads in the 70s and really started becoming popular with police and government agencies in the 80s.

When that happened, John Q. Public also started taking notice...and once again, "what's good enough for the police must be good enough for me" held sway with market influence.

During this transition period, there were much heated debates between die-hard revolver enthusiasts and those who preferred automatics.

But once automatics got a firm hold on the government agencies, the civilian interest immediately spiked...and the market opened up for a huge variety of other automatic pistols in many calibers, sizes, and styles.


It's never just a matter of engineering capability...the best engineering capability in the world won't amount to a hill of beans if the market isn't there for the product.

 

[Joe Demko]

You're not addressing this point: Why did nobody even try to bring one to market? Enough other really bizarre, ungainly, and ultimately unsuccessful guns have been manufactured (COP, anyone? Gyrojet? Dardick?) that just handwaving it off as "they wouldn't sell, so nobody even tried" isn't really convincing to me...especially when you have Seecamp trying to make the smallest DA auto he can in the most effective cartridges that will work in a blowback gun and those being in such demand that just owning one was something of an accomplishment.

 

[Joe Demko]

Also, if materials haven't changed, would you kindly give me a list of just the three or four most popular handguns utilizing polymer, titanium, and scandium-alloy from oh, say, 1914 up to 1975 or so?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You're not addressing this point: Why did nobody even try to bring one to market? Enough other really bizarre, ungainly, and ultimately unsuccessful guns have been manufactured (COP, anyone? Gyrojet? Dardick?) that just handwaving it off as "they wouldn't sell, so nobody even tried" isn't really convincing to me...especially when you have Seecamp trying to make the smallest DA auto he can in the most effective cartridges that will work in a blowback gun and those being in such demand that just owning one was something of an accomplishment.

No, I'm not missing the point at all.

Like so many other aspects of life, this is a holistic event. More than one thing conspired together to make things the way they were with revolvers and pistols.

Nobody bothered trying to make any headway into small semi-automatics beyond the calibers you mentioned because there wasn't a market for them.

The firearms market is a tough one, it is and it was in the days of yesteryear. There has to be a sustainable demand somewhere if you want a particular design to succeed...not only that, but it will be in direct competition with whatever is already established on the market.

The civilian market didn't really start picking up on semi-automatic pistols until AFTER various government agencies started migrating towards them. And when they did, the civilian market not only picked up on semi-automatic pistols, they picked up on the calibers that were popular with those various government agencies.

And those calibers were pretty much .45 ACP and 9mm.

Once the market opened up with civilians, then you started seeing more people making and marketing semi-automatics that the public wanted...and in the beginning, what they wanted was what the government agencies had, which was mostly .45 ACP and 9mm.

Over time, the market gained a lot more diversification and more and more options were opened up to the public. In the 40 years since the majority of government agencies started switching to automatics, there has been a huge explosion of diversification in available calibers, designs, and sizes.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Also, if materials haven't changed, would you kindly give me a list of just the three or four most popular handguns utilizing polymer, titanium, and scandium-alloy from oh, say, 1914 up to 1975 or so?

And who said materials haven't changed? What we've been saying (at least me) is that the change in materials hasn't really brought about any significant changes in the design and operation of semi-automatic pistols.

Polymers haven't contributed to smaller pistols. They've contributed to lighter pistols.

Name an alloy of steel commonly used in pistols and revolvers today that was unknown that many decades ago. Stainless steels have been around since at least 1911, with an alloy of austenitic stainless steel patented in 1912. Stainless steels have been used in firearms since before WWI. 416 stainless was patented in 1968. 400 series (and 300 series) stainless steels, very popular, have been around since before WWI.

Titanium has been used in a lot of things, but has it's own issues with manufacturing. But it's been used as structural material since at least the 1950's and 1960's.

Any other fancy alloys are just that...the latest and greatest to hit the manufacturing market for whatever use. But they still haven't significantly impacted the firearms market with respect to the innovations we've been talking about.

 

[short barrel]

My most often carry gun is a Colt Cobra made in 1955.

 

[Onmilo]

Most often used CCW guns are a 20 year old G19 and a 15 year old G26.
Run just fine they do.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Although I carry a bunch of different guns, my preferences are High Powers/1911s, & revolvers and most recently a Sig P938 has joined the bunch. Although the P938 may be new in so far as the design/caliber combination, the basic design goes back a few decades, and even that was just a modification of the 1911.

 

[tarosean]

Also, if materials haven't changed, would you kindly give me a list of just the three or four most popular handguns utilizing polymer, titanium, and scandium-alloy from oh, say, 1914 up to 1975 or so?

I see you want to stack the deck injecting "popular". Doesn't negate the fact that polymers started being used in firearms in the 50's and started being used in handguns in the late 60's.


Seems like yesterday, but it's been almost 50 years...