TallPine
Member
As a volunteer wildland firefighter, I might speak with various LEOs several times during the fire season.
At what point should you STOP talking to an LEO during a traffic stop or at home??
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alan
Member
Wasn't it Lincoln who offered that Most people sound smarter with their mouths closed than with their mouths open?
CROPCIRCLEWALKER says,
Beautiful!
Should this need a little explanation, Martha Stewart was convicted in federal court of obstruction of justice and lying to investigators, essentially for saying "I didn't do it" when it was later determined that in fact she did do it, or, as put by CNN here. Her case stands for the proposition that one can be convicted of a serious crime for wrongfully claiming innocence.
This is no joke. It is instead a very good argument for keeping one's mouth shut. You have no obligation to tell an LEO that you did it, and you have no obligation to tell her that you didn't do it. Saying either could put you in it real deep.
Let there be no misunderstanding. The issue here is not whether or not you think you did it -- the issue is whether or not a jury thinks you did it.
Beautiful!
Should this need a little explanation, Martha Stewart was convicted in federal court of obstruction of justice and lying to investigators, essentially for saying "I didn't do it" when it was later determined that in fact she did do it, or, as put by CNN here. Her case stands for the proposition that one can be convicted of a serious crime for wrongfully claiming innocence.
This is no joke. It is instead a very good argument for keeping one's mouth shut. You have no obligation to tell an LEO that you did it, and you have no obligation to tell her that you didn't do it. Saying either could put you in it real deep.
Let there be no misunderstanding. The issue here is not whether or not you think you did it -- the issue is whether or not a jury thinks you did it.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Better to pay some fines than licking their boots.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Been pulled over in TX three times; one pre-CHL and two of those when I had my CHL. Got two out of three stops as warnings; one pre-CHL and one CHL. The third stop was a nice, efficient ticket; the officer could not have cared less if I had a CHL than if I was Jerry Jones hisself.
As seems to be happening a lot lately, you didn't quite grasp the gist of what I was saying. I don't espouse getting smart or sullen with officers, and I have always had good luck being friendly and open. What I'm suggesting is that *IF* the stop turns into a fishing expedition as opposed to anything else, it'll be obvious - and THAT is the time to start shuttin' up. Up until the point where the LEO starts fishing for information (whatchya got there in the trunk, boy? you mind if I look around? how much cash you got on you tonight?) it behooves everyone involved to be normal and civil. But once the fishing starts, it's far less likely to hurt my situation by being quiet than by either being a smart-a$$ *or* by giing the officer free rein to poke and prod for anything that he/she determines to be of interest.
Spreadfire Arms
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agreed. but know the rules of engagement (ie the 4th Amendment) too. the officer cannot obtain a consent search until you are released from detention. otherwise it's not consent. that means, after the ticket or warning is issued. so, why not be nice, try to get out of the ticket, and then decline a consent search? then you have achieved both of your goals - you didn't get a ticket and they didn't get a consent search.
if it turns into a fishing expedition then sure id be polite and civil but decline to consent to a search if i felt i did not want to submit to one.
PennsyPlinker
Member
I must meet a different crowd of LEOs than most people. I have been stopped, and have had officers visit me at home, mostly because of a call I made, but on a couple of occasions because of one someone else made. One, the most recent, was when I confronted a neighbor as to why his kid was hanging around my place of business late at night. He got extremely angry, started screaming in my face, threatened to blow my head off with a shotgun, and claimed I was harrassing him. Part of this was because I had confronted him on several occasions in the past about his dog running loose on my property and attacking my small backup dog.
When the LEO arrived (the next day) he asked me to tell my side of the story. Within minutes he was laughing and telling me I had nothing to worry about except a neighbor who was out to cause me trouble. Despite my neighbor accusing me of (gasp!) owning a gun, and carrying it about my property
he did not ask to see it, search anything, or why I needed one.
In the several traffic stops for speeding, fishing, or accident reports, no one has asked me anything out of line or off the subject of the matter at hand. Maybe I just look innocent.
When the LEO arrived (the next day) he asked me to tell my side of the story. Within minutes he was laughing and telling me I had nothing to worry about except a neighbor who was out to cause me trouble. Despite my neighbor accusing me of (gasp!) owning a gun, and carrying it about my property
he did not ask to see it, search anything, or why I needed one.In the several traffic stops for speeding, fishing, or accident reports, no one has asked me anything out of line or off the subject of the matter at hand. Maybe I just look innocent.
cropcirclewalker
member
Mr. Pennysplinker, let me see if I can do some profiling as an amatuer.
I suspect that you are not Black.
I suspect that you are not poor.
I suspect that you do not live in a urban setting.
I suspect that you wear glasses and drive a red car.
How'd I do?
I suspect that you are not Black.
I suspect that you are not poor.
I suspect that you do not live in a urban setting.
I suspect that you wear glasses and drive a red car.
How'd I do?
Harry Paget Flashman
Member
I got 3½ out of 4. Am I safe?
cropcirclewalker
member
Yessir.
Trade in the red car and you will be fine.
Trade in the red car and you will be fine.
BigFatKen
Member
Who wrote the book "Rewind" and time travel ?
Just a question first. I just read that here somewhere and I can't find it now.
Anyway, when I lived in Bradenton, a family was killed in east Manatee County. The husband was a prime supect. He "lawered up" according to LEOs and the investigation stopped.
Time goes by and the evidence of a work boot print on a bedspread is ignored. Finally, after the LEOs can't build a case against the husband and what I'm sure cost him a small fortune, they look into the sometimes yard worker. By lawering up, the man did not go to jail, but his wife's killer almost got away.
Suspect has history of violence:
Landscaper Larry Parks is charged in the murders of nurse Sherry Brannon and her two daughters.http://www.sptimes.com/News/102999/TampaBay/Suspect_has_history_o.shtml
It seemed to happen all the time in the Tampa-Bradenton area. Side bar: The Manatee sheriff refused to sign my NFA application.
Just a question first. I just read that here somewhere and I can't find it now.
Anyway, when I lived in Bradenton, a family was killed in east Manatee County. The husband was a prime supect. He "lawered up" according to LEOs and the investigation stopped.
Time goes by and the evidence of a work boot print on a bedspread is ignored. Finally, after the LEOs can't build a case against the husband and what I'm sure cost him a small fortune, they look into the sometimes yard worker. By lawering up, the man did not go to jail, but his wife's killer almost got away.
Suspect has history of violence:
Landscaper Larry Parks is charged in the murders of nurse Sherry Brannon and her two daughters.http://www.sptimes.com/News/102999/TampaBay/Suspect_has_history_o.shtml
It seemed to happen all the time in the Tampa-Bradenton area. Side bar: The Manatee sheriff refused to sign my NFA application.
I must look honest, because I have been stopped a couple times for speeding since I got my CHL and both times just got a warning with really no questions at all. I was fully prepared to admit I was going a little fast. I guess the last kid (younger than me) asked me what I was carrying. I didn't mind answering that.
You have to remember that there are a million ways to answer those questions in your own way. You can always do so without getting belligerent or meekly giving the answer he wants. Otherwise, you would be better off just saying nothing than to start getting lawyerly or start cussing.
I would say potentially yes. Getting belligerent with an LEO (verbally or physically) is just asking for trouble. A pissed off LEO can cause you more trouble than you want. That may not be right, but it is likely reality much of the time.
You have to remember that there are a million ways to answer those questions in your own way. You can always do so without getting belligerent or meekly giving the answer he wants. Otherwise, you would be better off just saying nothing than to start getting lawyerly or start cussing.
MudCamper
Member
PennsyPlinker
Member
Not too bad. I drive a green truck, and poor is a thing that I have been from time to time, but not at the present time. I did live in the city for 15 years, but I am a country boy born and bred, and finally made it back to the country a while ago. Actually, most of my own problems have been with people from the city, including my transplanted neighbor. He is not black either, and way less poor than I am, although his wife drives a red car and he wears glasses.
However, several of the LEOs who have interacted with me have been black, while I am white. Does that make a difference? I don't think so, and I am not naive. I know that racism and profiling exist, but I think a lot of it has to do with behavior when stopped or confronted.
But isn't profiling against the law?
Edit in: I forgot to ask - what does wearing glasses have to do with it?
silverbird
Member
I tried that route the FIRST time I got pulled over.
Driving my newly restored hot rod, I laid a little rubber around a turn. Got pulled about two miles down the road. Cop asked "Do you know why I pulled you over?"
I replied "Could it have been my little episode back there?" (that's all I said)
He ran back to his car with my license, came back to mine a few minutes later with a spinning wheels ticket. After I signed it, he said "I never saw you do it...I just heard the noise, and saw your car a minute later. You admitted to the crime, and now you have a ticket."
that was the LAST time I gave anything more than I needed to.
Granted, I was guilty, but the cop did NOT have enough evidence to convict me of a crime ("my little episode" could have meant 1,000 different things that day), but he chose to write me up anyways. I take my chances with keeping my mouth shut now though.
cropcirclewalker
member
Cops don't like to smack people wearing glasses.
Gets blood on their uniform.
PennsyPlinker asks,
As a general rule, Pennsy, not at all. The offense of "driving while (black) (brown) (red) (Asian) (middle eastern) (etc.)" is alive and well in many areas in our country.
Some jurisdictions have enacted legislation requiring law enforcement agencies to keep statistics on the racial makeup of those arrested, and some have administrative regulations against the practice. If racial profiling is against the law anywhere in the 'States I am personally unaware of it, but the older I get the more I learn I am ignorant about.
Jim
But isn't profiling against the law?
As a general rule, Pennsy, not at all. The offense of "driving while (black) (brown) (red) (Asian) (middle eastern) (etc.)" is alive and well in many areas in our country.
Some jurisdictions have enacted legislation requiring law enforcement agencies to keep statistics on the racial makeup of those arrested, and some have administrative regulations against the practice. If racial profiling is against the law anywhere in the 'States I am personally unaware of it, but the older I get the more I learn I am ignorant about.
Jim
kevin davis
Member
Like many of you, I have had varying experiences when pulled over. Once, I was pulled over for going 75 in a 65 zone (interstate) by a county sheriff. When he implied I was driving way too fast for safety, I said that the DPS trooper up the road did not pull me over for the same speed, he just left. Another time a city policeman pulled me over (I was doing 45 in a 35 zone) and tried to tell me I was doing 65. I told him "This is a 6 cylinder truck with a 5 speed. I could not get that fast if I tried." He turned around and left. (Later on I tried to accelerate and could only get to 55 in that spot). I have never denied speeding when caught doing so, and feel it better to pay a ticket and get on, rather than ticking off the police. My son, a college student was stopped for speeding by a county sheriff , which he was doing, but then they tore my car apart, since he was driving my car, looking for nonexistent drugs, and did not put it back together afterward. No consent was obtained for the search, but he felt extremely threatened by the officers and did not feel he could say no. I have never been asked where I was coming from, nor how much cash I was carrying, but did have one officer tell me where to stand out in the hot sun and he moved me around four times ( I think he was on a power trip since I was in a red Porsche 928). My way is to be polite, but not take false accusations and not volunteer any information.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
pcosmar
member
Honesty has gotten me into trouble in the past. On the advice of 2 different lawyers, say nothing. You have the RIGHT to remain silent.
Anything you say can and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.
Anything you say can and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.
cassandrasdaddy
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its no panacea
there are/were definite times when lawyering up makes sense and other times when you can be honest and still pay the price. i got nailed for 155 in a 55 was honest about it and still got 12 months. but in cases where they have you cold there is nothi to be gained pretending you didn't do it. i had a false charge filed against me 2 years ago and called the chief magistrate and outlined what happened and was truthful he called me back less than 24 hours later and sasid " i believe a mistake was made ay\t this end and we'll rectify it. he did so. its no guarantee . most plea bargains are based upon some form of at least limited confession. i don't give em anything they don't have but if they get me fair and square i own what i did and have abandoned my aspiration of being a jailhouse lawyer
there are/were definite times when lawyering up makes sense and other times when you can be honest and still pay the price. i got nailed for 155 in a 55 was honest about it and still got 12 months. but in cases where they have you cold there is nothi to be gained pretending you didn't do it. i had a false charge filed against me 2 years ago and called the chief magistrate and outlined what happened and was truthful he called me back less than 24 hours later and sasid " i believe a mistake was made ay\t this end and we'll rectify it. he did so. its no guarantee . most plea bargains are based upon some form of at least limited confession. i don't give em anything they don't have but if they get me fair and square i own what i did and have abandoned my aspiration of being a jailhouse lawyer
kungfuhippie
Member
My hat of to you. What were you driving at 155 mph?
Taking responsiblility for your actions, what a novel idea.
CDADDY,
If more men did just that the world be a better place. Being honest has saved my butt at work and at the side of the road. When my boss asks me something he knows I'll be truthful because I take responsibility for my actions, even when it counts...
ksnecktieman
Member
I have never had a police officer ask if he can search my car. I did have two that said " I need to search your car."
They do not ask if they have enough cause to get a warrant. When they do ask, it does not sound like a request, it sounds like an order.
My automated response, is either, "why?" or "no". With that said, when a city cop knocked on my door, and said he had a domestic violence complaint for my address, I invited him inside to investigate, with my significant other eight feet away, watching tv with me. When he reported to dispatch, they told him he missed the address by ONE block, it was Jefferson street, not Washington street. I may have done differently if I had not known the cop, and been able to call him by his first name. When I opened the door, he called me by mine too.
I am a firm believer that silence is golden. I see no need to be obnoxious, or abrasive, but a "non answer" is a good responce.
I might have a coffee can in the trunk, I am a mechanic, and they are a good collection point for nuts, and bolts. With the price of cigarettes, I do sometimes roll my own, but,,, if I have my pipe or a package of papers,,,, BOTH ARE "PARAPHENALIA".... I had better have a partial can of Prince Albert with me.
I do know some wonderful cops... very few, but very perfect. Most of the local force are just guys doing a job. I do not think we can afford to hire the ones that will be perfect. When you get right down to the nitty gritty,,, leo ARE UNDERPAID
They do not ask if they have enough cause to get a warrant. When they do ask, it does not sound like a request, it sounds like an order.
My automated response, is either, "why?" or "no". With that said, when a city cop knocked on my door, and said he had a domestic violence complaint for my address, I invited him inside to investigate, with my significant other eight feet away, watching tv with me. When he reported to dispatch, they told him he missed the address by ONE block, it was Jefferson street, not Washington street. I may have done differently if I had not known the cop, and been able to call him by his first name. When I opened the door, he called me by mine too.
I am a firm believer that silence is golden. I see no need to be obnoxious, or abrasive, but a "non answer" is a good responce.
I might have a coffee can in the trunk, I am a mechanic, and they are a good collection point for nuts, and bolts. With the price of cigarettes, I do sometimes roll my own, but,,, if I have my pipe or a package of papers,,,, BOTH ARE "PARAPHENALIA".... I had better have a partial can of Prince Albert with me.
I do know some wonderful cops... very few, but very perfect. Most of the local force are just guys doing a job. I do not think we can afford to hire the ones that will be perfect. When you get right down to the nitty gritty,,, leo ARE UNDERPAID
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
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i was a young moron
and i get to see myself in the words and actions of other young men often makes me laugh if i like em it make me want to smack em . i made too much money too young spent it on fast motorcycles boats and better living through modern chemistry. i did 248 days to kill the 12 month sentence and didn't drive legally again for 18 years
i had same judge for another ticket over 90 earlier same week on this http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcnuts/tz750-1.html
in 76 i paid 15 k for one with a spare motor and an assortment of racing parts it was fast and i was famous with the local cops
its why i have a LOT of police experience when i sold it i took up the chemistry angle and really got to know em more.
and i get to see myself in the words and actions of other young men often makes me laugh if i like em it make me want to smack em . i made too much money too young spent it on fast motorcycles boats and better living through modern chemistry. i did 248 days to kill the 12 month sentence and didn't drive legally again for 18 years
i had same judge for another ticket over 90 earlier same week on this http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcnuts/tz750-1.html
in 76 i paid 15 k for one with a spare motor and an assortment of racing parts it was fast and i was famous with the local cops
its why i have a LOT of police experience when i sold it i took up the chemistry angle and really got to know em more.
Zundfolge
Member
So far MudCamper has done the best job of answering this guy's question.
As far as what you are required to say to a police officer, I believe you are required to "identify" yourself and thats it.
I've been asked a couple of times to consent to a search.
Once when I was in highschool (so it was me and a couple of other long haired kids in a 1969 Mustang Fastback at the time). Officer asked "You mind if I take a look around your trunk?" to which I responded "I do not consent to any search of my vehicle." (those were the exact words). I think the way I worded it startled him because he just handed back my license and said "well I'm just going to let you off with a warning this time, but slow down." (yeah, I was speeding). I honestly believe that the fact that I politely but firmly, and articulately stated my lack of willingness to consent (and made it clear I knew my rights but without being a jerk about it) not only got me out of sitting at the side of the road waiting for the drug dog, but also likely got me out of a ticket.
As far as what you are required to say to a police officer, I believe you are required to "identify" yourself and thats it.
I've been asked a couple of times to consent to a search.
Once when I was in highschool (so it was me and a couple of other long haired kids in a 1969 Mustang Fastback at the time). Officer asked "You mind if I take a look around your trunk?" to which I responded "I do not consent to any search of my vehicle." (those were the exact words). I think the way I worded it startled him because he just handed back my license and said "well I'm just going to let you off with a warning this time, but slow down." (yeah, I was speeding). I honestly believe that the fact that I politely but firmly, and articulately stated my lack of willingness to consent (and made it clear I knew my rights but without being a jerk about it) not only got me out of sitting at the side of the road waiting for the drug dog, but also likely got me out of a ticket.
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