ATF/NFA questions with Form 1

[Texasgrillchef]

Please feel free at anytime to correct me if I am wrong.

Hypothetical questions to make sure I fully understand. At no time, no question is intended to imply that I would, will or want to do as any question might suggest.

1. As I understand it. If I have a current rifle or shotgun and I wish to make it a SBR/SBS I first submit a Form 1 and wait for approval. Once approved (paperwork received) I can then make the modifications to convert it into a SBR/SBS. So my questions are:

A. Once I have received the approval, am I allowed to do any R&D and testing? Such as cut the barrel down... to one length, then a shorter length etc until I get to the length I ultimately desire.

B. Many guns he the capability to have interchangeable barrels. So would I be Allowed one day to put a non nfa length barrel 24” for example, then an hour later put a 14” barrel on it... then back to the 24” as needed? Or even change it from a rifled Short Barrel to a short barrel smooth Bore and back again?


2. Does a form 1 allow me to build a SBR/SBS from scratch? Meaning no prior gun existed and now I am custom designing and making a gun from raw metals, polymers and wood to create a brand new custom SBR/SBS or even a brand new custom AOW? Since this would be a new custom gun, is there any possibility for design changes needed due to testing results from R&D?

3. Is a form 1 needed if one is building an otherwise non-NFA weapon from scratch?

4. If I buy a AOW the tax fee is $5, but if I want to make a AOW then it’s $200, but if I then legally sell that AOW mu purchaser would only have to pay the $5 fee? Such as if I made an equivalent weapon similar to Mossbergs Compact Cruiser.

5. If the Form 1 was filed by a Gun trust, would anyone on the gun trust be allowed to build the approved weapon, or only the main person of the gun trust?

I may have additional questions

 

[dogtown tom]

Please feel free at anytime to correct me if I am wrong.

Hypothetical questions to make sure I fully understand. At no time, no question is intended to imply that I would, will or want to do as any question might suggest.

1. As I understand it. If I have a current rifle or shotgun and I wish to make it a SBR/SBS I first submit a Form 1 and wait for approval. Once approved (paperwork received) I can then make the modifications to convert it into a SBR/SBS. So my questions are:

A. Once I have received the approval, am I allowed to do any R&D and testing? Such as cut the barrel down... to one length, then a shorter length etc until I get to the length I ultimately desire.

When you fill out your Form 1 you must describe the firearm you are making, barrel length and OAL included. Once your Form 1 is returned approved, you make it as described on the Form 1. There is no requirement to keep it as described on the Form 1, but you do have to initially build it as you said you were on the application.

B. Many guns he the capability to have interchangeable barrels. So would I be Allowed one day to put a non nfa length barrel 24” for example, then an hour later put a 14” barrel on it... then back to the 24” as needed?

Sure.
You can have an SBR whose Form1/4 says 10"bbl and you can go back and forth with any length barrels or OAL you want. Remember, SBS and SBS are about configuration....if your SBS isn't configured as a Short Barreled Rifle, it isn't a Short Barreled Rifle. Want to travel interstate with an SBR? You'll need ATF approval. But, remove that short barrell and assemble with a 16"bbl and your AR is no longer NFA.

Or even change it from a rifled Short Barrel to a short barrel smooth Bore and back again?

Nope. That would be making a Short Barreled Shotgun and requires a separate $200 tax stamp.

2. Does a form 1 allow me to build a SBR/SBS from scratch? Meaning no prior gun existed and now I am custom designing and making a gun from raw metals, polymers and wood to create a brand new custom SBR/SBS or even a brand new custom AOW? Since this would be a new custom gun, is there any possibility for design changes needed due to testing results from R&D?

A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.

3. Is a form 1 needed if one is building an otherwise non-NFA weapon from scratch?

No.
A Form 1 is for making certain NFA firearms.

4. If I buy a AOW the tax fee is $5, but if I want to make a AOW then it’s $200, but if I then legally sell that AOW mu purchaser would only have to pay the $5 fee? Such as if I made an equivalent weapon similar to Mossbergs Compact Cruiser.

Correct.

5. If the Form 1 was filed by a Gun trust, would anyone on the gun trust be allowed to build the approved weapon, or only the main person of the gun trust?

Anyone listed on the trust as a "responsible person".
***"Makers" of NFA firearms are required to engrave the makers name/city/state on the frame, receiver or barrel. Choose a short name for your trust, DogtownTom Irrevocable Family NFA Gun Trust is not a good name. Engravers charge by the letter.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I think I found the answer question 2, about making an NFA item such as SBS, SBR and AOW from scratch. In that it has to be. F1 manufacturer with a license.

All I can say after reading the nfa laws and rules and regulations. Is it’s time we get our lawmakers to rewrite this mess. Lol

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Sure.
You can have an SBR whose Form1/4 says 10"bbl and you can go back and forth with any length barrels or OAL you want. Remember, SBS and SBS are about configuration....if your SBS isn't configured as a Short Barreled Rifle, it isn't a Short Barreled Rifle. Want to travel interstate with an SBR? You'll need ATF approval. But, remove that short barrell and assemble with a 16"bbl and your AR is no longer NFA.




Nope. That would be making a Short Barreled Shotgun and requires a separate $200 tax stamp.



A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.


No.
A Form 1 is for making certain NFA firearms.

Correct.


Anyone listed on the trust as a "responsible person".
***"Makers" of NFA firearms are required to engrave the makers name/city/state on the frame, receiver or barrel. Choose a short name for your trust, DogtownTom Irrevocable Family NFA Gun Trust is not a good name. Engravers charge by the letter.

When you fill out your Form 1 you must describe the firearm you are making, barrel length and OAL included. Once your Form 1 is returned approved, you make it as described on the Form 1. There is no requirement to keep it as described on the Form 1, but you do have to initially build it as you said you were on the application.


Sure.
You can have an SBR whose Form1/4 says 10"bbl and you can go back and forth with any length barrels or OAL you want. Remember, SBS and SBS are about configuration....if your SBS isn't configured as a Short Barreled Rifle, it isn't a Short Barreled Rifle. Want to travel interstate with an SBR? You'll need ATF approval. But, remove that short barrell and assemble with a 16"bbl and your AR is no longer NFA.




Nope. That would be making a Short Barreled Shotgun and requires a separate $200 tax stamp.



A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.


No.
A Form 1 is for making certain NFA firearms.

Correct.


Anyone listed on the trust as a "responsible person".
***"Makers" of NFA firearms are required to engrave the makers name/city/state on the frame, receiver or barrel. Choose a short name for your trust, DogtownTom Irrevocable Family NFA Gun Trust is not a good name. Engravers charge by the letter.

When you fill out your Form 1 you must describe the firearm you are making, barrel length and OAL included. Once your Form 1 is returned approved, you make it as described on the Form 1. There is no requirement to keep it as described on the Form 1, but you do have to initially build it as you said you were on the application.


Sure.
You can have an SBR whose Form1/4 says 10"bbl and you can go back and forth with any length barrels or OAL you want. Remember, SBS and SBS are about configuration....if your SBS isn't configured as a Short Barreled Rifle, it isn't a Short Barreled Rifle. Want to travel interstate with an SBR? You'll need ATF approval. But, remove that short barrell and assemble with a 16"bbl and your AR is no longer NFA.




Nope. That would be making a Short Barreled Shotgun and requires a separate $200 tax stamp.



A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.


No.
A Form 1 is for making certain NFA firearms.

Correct.


Anyone listed on the trust as a "responsible person".
***"Makers" of NFA firearms are required to engrave the makers name/city/state on the frame, receiver or barrel. Choose a short name for your trust, DogtownTom Irrevocable Family NFA Gun Trust is not a good name. Engravers charge by the letter.

Two questions...

I can’t think of the make or model off the top of my head... but I know there are a couple of firearms makers that make a combination two barrel rifle shotgun combination. I believe a 22lr 20 gauge combo. Which is not an nfa weapon.
So if if one wants to cut that barrel down to 17”, it would make it a Short barreled shotgun, but not a short barreled rifle. What would the implications be of that? Or even if it was cut down to 15” thus making it both a SBS and SBR.

If it was first cut to 17” then 15” two $200 tax fees would be required, if one cut was made at 15” of both barrels, then that would be one tax fee at $200?

Then their is the Henry or maybe it’s the Rossi survival gun, it comes with two interchangeable barrels, (22lr, and 410) if both barrels were cut down, would that be one tax, or two?

 

[dogtown tom]

Two questions...

I can’t think of the make or model off the top of my head... but I know there are a couple of firearms makers that make a combination two barrel rifle shotgun combination. I believe a 22lr 20 gauge combo. Which is not an nfa weapon.
So if if one wants to cut that barrel down to 17”, it would make it a Short barreled shotgun, but not a short barreled rifle. What would the implications be of that? Or even if it was cut down to 15” thus making it both a SBS and SBR.?

SBS and SBR two stamps required.
If from a new receiver,AOW if the barrels are 12" or more. If under 12" you have a two stamp gun I believe.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...51a7a4b2&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_111&rgn=div8
479.11
Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

If it was first cut to 17” then 15” two $200 tax fees would be required, if one cut was made at 15” of both barrels, then that would be one tax fee at $200?

Then their is the Henry or maybe it’s the Rossi survival gun, it comes with two interchangeable barrels, (22lr, and 410) if both barrels were cut down, would that be one tax, or two

See above.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

When you fill out your Form 1 you must describe the firearm you are making, barrel length and OAL included. Once your Form 1 is returned approved, you make it as described on the Form 1. There is no requirement to keep it as described on the Form 1, but you do have to initially build it as you said you were on the application.


Sure.
You can have an SBR whose Form1/4 says 10"bbl and you can go back and forth with any length barrels or OAL you want. Remember, SBS and SBS are about configuration....if your SBS isn't configured as a Short

SBS and SBR two stamps required.
If from a new receiver,AOW if the barrels are 12" or more. If under 12" you have a two stamp gun I believe.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...51a7a4b2&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_111&rgn=div8
479.11
Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

See above.

Looks like one stamp if it was cut at 15” or even under 12”, although if cut twice, probably two stamps as it would change from AOW to Pistol, I think.

As I read that... the dual separate barrel 22lr/410 looks like it would be one stamp Since the serial number isn’t on the barrels and the serial number represents both a shotgun and rifle. I would say if one were to want to cut those down, that they ask a lawyer or the atf! Lol

I did notice with in the regulations that if you make changes to your SBS or SBR by shortening the barrel or overall length more, that you are required to notify the atf of the changes.

 

[dogtown tom]

Looks like one stamp if it was cut at 15” or even under 12”, although if cut twice, probably two stamps as it would change from AOW to Pistol, I think..

A pistol is not an NFA firearm.
If you cut an existing rifle shorter than 26"oal/16"bbl you have made an SBR.
If you cut an existing shotgun shorter than 26"oal/18"bbl you have made a SBS.
If you cut an existing rifle/shotgun "combination" gun to less than 26"oal/18"bbl you have made an SBS.
If you cut an existing rifle/shotgun "combination" gun to less than 26"oal/16"bbl you have made two NFA firearms, SBS & SBR requiring a tax stamp for each.
If you build a "combination gun" with shotgun and rifle barrels, from a new receiver, less than 26"oal and greater than a 12" barrel length, you have made an AOW.

As I read that... the dual separate barrel 22lr/410 looks like it would be one stamp Since the serial number isn’t on the barrels and the serial number represents both a shotgun and rifle. I would say if one were to want to cut those down, that they ask a lawyer or the atf! Lol

Where the serial number is located has nothing to do with anything.

I did notice with in the regulations that if you make changes to your SBS or SBR by shortening the barrel or overall length more, that you are required to notify the atf of the changes

No such requirement.

 

[pdsmith505]

...
2. Does a form 1 allow me to build a SBR/SBS from scratch? Meaning no prior gun existed and now I am custom designing and making a gun from raw metals, polymers and wood to create a brand new custom SBR/SBS or even a brand new custom AOW? Since this would be a new custom gun, is there any possibility for design changes needed due to testing results from R&D?
...

...
A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.
...

I understand that the topic is primarily about SBR/SBS... and I also understand that Dogtown knows what he's talking about.

But, to make the finer point for anyone thinking about a Form 1 Silencer: You, as a non-licencee, may not do "R&D" on a silencer. I have *heard* of individuals getting variances for length during construction that differs slightly from what is on the approved Form 1, but once you build the silencer, that's it. Don't like your baffles? Time to employ the services of a SOT manufacturer. Want it longer? Tough cookies. Want to bore it out to a different caliber (even with the help of an SOT)? Tough cookies.

 

[dogtown tom]

....But, to make the finer point for anyone thinking about a Form 1 Silencer: You, as a non-licencee, may not do "R&D" on a silencer.....

Why not? "R&D" isn't regulated, just making. As long as your approved Form 1 silencer is "as described" on the application (caliber and length) you can drill more holes in each baffle, clip the baffles or add/subtract the number of baffles to your hearts delight. You just cannot make spares or baffles of a different type, as parts of a silencer are regulated just like a complete silencer.
Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )

I have *heard* of individuals getting variances for length during construction that differs slightly from what is on the approved Form 1, but once you build the silencer, that's it. Don't like your baffles? Time to employ the services of a SOT manufacturer. Want it longer? Tough cookies. Want to bore it out to a different caliber (even with the help of an SOT)? Tough cookies.

That's correct.....but the maker of that Form 1 silencer can certainly perform design changes during the building process that do not require ATF approval or an SOT.

 

[pdsmith505]

Why not? "R&D" isn't regulated, just making. As long as your approved Form 1 silencer is "as described" on the application (caliber and length) you can drill more holes in each baffle, clip the baffles or add/subtract the number of baffles to your hearts delight. You just cannot make spares or baffles of a different type, as parts of a silencer are regulated just like a complete silencer.
Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )


That's correct.....but the maker of that Form 1 silencer can certainly perform design changes during the building process that do not require ATF approval or an SOT.

That's an argument that has been discussed ad nauseam across the internet... but consider this:

Let's say I take a tube, then add an endcap and a thread adapter. I put it on a gun and fire off some rounds. That device will certainly silence, muffle, or diminish the report of a portable firearm. It is, legally, a complete silencer per 18 USC 921 (a) (24). Granted, it's most likely a poorly performing silencer, but still, it is a silencer.

The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

So, I think to myself... "Man, this silencer I have is really loud. I've heard of people putting baffles in these things," and proceed to make some new baffles for my silencer. Sounds good right?

The ATF disagrees. Back in the day a Mr. Bardwell asked a series of questions to the ATF... one of which included making new baffles for an existing silencer:

                      DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
                BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
                         WASHINGTON, DC 20226

                              AUG 23 1999

                                                           901040:GS
                                                           5320/99-0115

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

This is in response to your letter of June 28, 1999, regarding the
repair of a silencer by an individual owner.  You ask "whether it
is lawful for the owner of a lawfully possessed silencer ... to
repair that silencer himself, by replacing unserialized internal
components with new components of his own making."  You cited the
replacement of a worn out plastic "wipe" or damaged baffle as an
example.

As you are aware, the terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm
muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing
the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part
intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.  Thus,
certain internal components, intended only for use in a silencer,
are silencers as defined.

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer.  Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made.  This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.

In regard to the two parts in your cited example, we consider a
baffle to be a silencer, but a wipe, which is usually nothing more
than a rubber or plastic disc with a hole in it, is generally not
considered to be a silencer.  Thus an individual owner could
replace a wipe.

                                 - 2 -

Mr. Bardwell

For the replacement of a part or parts that meet the definition of
a silencer, the individual owner would need to arrange for the
transfer of the silencer to a Federal firearms licensee who is
qualified to manufacture silencers.

If you have questions about the classification of other silencer
components, please provide us with a description of them or should
any additional information be needed, please contact Gary Schiable
at (202) 927-8330.


                           Sincerely yours,

                               [signed]
                            Kent M. Cousins
                  Chief, National Firearms Act Branch

One could argue that I was not "replacing" a baffle... but no such baffles existed previously and I already had a silencer. Any new parts are, by definition, silencers in and of themselves.

To make a new part, once I already had a silencer, I would have to make something that is legally defined as a silencer all on it's own.

There is a gray area regarding mounts and thread adapters, since those parts might not only be for use in a silencer (blast diffusers, muzzle brakes, etc)... but baffles, spacers, packing material , etc, would be a hard sell for use in something else.

One could also argue that this letter only applies to Mr. Bardwell... and, in fact, it does. But a non-licensee would be taking a major risk to assume that the ATF would rule differently than it has in the past.

Edited to add:

I suppose I would agree with you right up until the point where someone actually used an assembly as a silencer. That is, before you ever send a round down the tube, you are still building it. Re-reading your post, we might agree more than I initially thought.

Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )


That's correct.....but the maker of that Form 1 silencer can certainly perform design changes during the building process that do not require ATF approval or an SOT.

 

[dogtown tom]

1. Reread what I wrote, you're either misreading and most certainly misunderstanding my post.
2. That letter is in regards to REPLACING EXISTING BAFFLES. Nothing I wrote suggests doing that.
3. It's perfectly legal to do your own gunsmithing or repair to a Form 1 silencer that does not involve replacing parts.

 

[pdsmith505]

1. Reread what I wrote, you're either misreading and most certainly misunderstanding my post.

Could be...

I suppose I would agree with you right up until the point where someone actually used an assembly as a silencer. That is, before you ever send a round down the tube, you are still building it. Re-reading your post, we might agree more than I initially thought.

2. That letter is in regards to REPLACING EXISTING BAFFLES. Nothing I wrote suggests doing that.

The letter covers more than replacing existing baffles:

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer.

3. It's perfectly legal to do your own gunsmithing or repair to a Form 1 silencer that does not involve replacing parts.

I guess where we must be splitting is on what you'd call "R&D"... for a SBR or SBS, you can always change barrel length or caliber, or even have multiple barrels/uppers. Decide you don't like your SBR in 5.56? Swap out a 9mm or 300 blk upper. Want a rifled barrel for your SBS? Great! Only the assembled item is a regulated item, not the individual parts.

But in the world of silencers, that's not the case. Once you've built your can, any new part is a silencer on it's own. Don't like the number of baffles and want to add another? Tough cookies. Don't like the radial cones you used for your .308 build and want 60* cones? Time to go to an SOT or pay the tax. Because, as the letter says:

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer.

On the other hand, going back and clipping your baffles, drilling vents, etc, doesn't create a new part and would seem to be perfectly fine for a non-licencee to do. Heck, I figure that even if you burst the tube but could repair it without making a new part you'd be fine.

I guess the question to ask is what would you consider to be the line in the sand when you would go from building your approved silencer to making new parts (and thus new silencers)?

 

[dogtown tom]

Could be...





The letter covers more than replacing existing baffles:

Well, no it doesn't. The question asked by Bardwell was quoted by ATF in the first paragraph.
Why you are arguing replacement parts (by copy/pasting the Bardwell letter) is odd. I was darn clear in my reply to you (post #9) that "spares" (replacement parts) are considered silencers themselves.

I guess where we must be splitting is on what you'd call "R&D"... for a SBR or SBS, you can always change barrel length or caliber, or even have multiple barrels/uppers. Decide you don't like your SBR in 5.56? Swap out a 9mm or 300 blk upper. Want a rifled barrel for your SBS? Great! Only the assembled item is a regulated item, not the individual parts.


But in the world of silencers, that's not the case.

You claimed "R&D" required someone to be a licensee. It does not.
A nonlicensee can Form 1 NFA firearms by the dozens as long as they pay the tax.
It's an expensive means of R&D, but perfectly legal for a nonlicensee.

Once you've built your can, any new part is a silencer on it's own.

No kidding. No one is arguing any different.

Don't like the number of baffles and want to add another? Tough cookies

.
No where did anyone mention adding baffles after the silencer was completed.

Don't like the radial cones you used for your .308 build and want 60* cones?

That's R&D....just don't use that design on your next Form 1 silencer.

Time to go to an SOT or pay the tax.

An SOT is not required in order to perform gunsmithing on NFA firearms. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensed-gunsmith-receive-nfa-firearm-purposes-repair

Because, as the letter says:

And "because as the letter says"? Well, the approved Form 1 is what allows the applicant to make a silencer and all the parts inside it. While building the silencer, the maker is free to cram as many baffles of any design, of any angle, clipped or unclipped, of any material he so desires. If baffles #5 and #6 don't seat together as well as the maker wants, he most certainly can destroy/throw away #6 and replace it before completing his silencer. That isn't making extra parts, that isn't replacing parts, that's not a violation because the silencer has not been completed. Once completed? Your "R&D" on that silencer is done.....and as the letter from Bardwell is about making spares and replacement parts...I covered that in post #9.

On the other hand, going back and clipping your baffles, drilling vents, etc, doesn't create a new part and would seem to be perfectly fine for a non-licencee to do. Heck, I figure that even if you burst the tube but could repair it without making a new part you'd be fine.

No kidding.

I guess the question to ask is what would you consider to be the line in the sand when you would go from building your approved silencer to making new parts (and thus new silencers)?

Line in the sand? How about just following what's written in plain English in ATF regs?

 

[MachIVshooter]

No where did anyone mention adding baffles after the silencer was completed.

No, but your verbiage in post #9 was pretty ambiguous in that regard. It was cleared up in subsequent posts, though.

Also worth noting for the OP that, while you can change barrel length & caliber on an SBR at will, you should either maintain the parts to configure it as it's listed on the F1 or send a letter to permanently amend the length and/or caliber detailed on F1.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Ok question....

Mares leg.... in the USA considered a handgun.
Replace the stock with a true rifle stock, it becomes a SBR without ever messing with the actual barrel, receiver, frame or any other mechanical working part of the firearm. Thus a form 1 has to be completed and addition info is required to be engraved on the mares leg.

1. I have done several internet searches in regards to then selling/transferring any nfa SBR to someone else.
The sale will be done with a form 4 I assume. But then my trust/name will be with the new owner?

2. If I do a form 1 as an individual, and later get a trust. Will it need to be engraved again with the trust name?

 

[pdsmith505]

There it is, I think I figured out the disconnect. OP asked:

...

2. Does a form 1 allow me to build a SBR/SBS from scratch? Meaning no prior gun existed and now I am custom designing and making a gun from raw metals, polymers and wood to create a brand new custom SBR/SBS or even a brand new custom AOW? Since this would be a new custom gun, is there any possibility for design changes needed due to testing results from R&D?
...

Which got the reply:

...
A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.
...

Which is generally true, except you don't get to make major design changes after making a silencer. As I pointed out here:

I understand that the topic is primarily about SBR/SBS... and I also understand that Dogtown knows what he's talking about.

But, to make the finer point for anyone thinking about a Form 1 Silencer: You, as a non-licencee, may not do "R&D" on a silencer. I have *heard* of individuals getting variances for length during construction that differs slightly from what is on the approved Form 1, but once you build the silencer, that's it. Don't like your baffles? Time to employ the services of a SOT manufacturer. Want it longer? Tough cookies. Want to bore it out to a different caliber (even with the help of an SOT)? Tough cookies.

And since we are being pedantic, note that the entirety of the above is in the singular... "a new custom gun", "an NFA firearm", "a silencer".

Well, no it doesn't. The question asked by Bardwell was quoted by ATF in the first paragraph.
Why you are arguing replacement parts (by copy/pasting the Bardwell letter) is odd. I was darn clear in my reply to you (post #9) that "spares" (replacement parts) are considered silencers themselves.

I cited the bardwell letter because it takes the letter of the law (any silencer part is, itself a silencer), and provides clarity on what that means for the Form 1 individual. If one can't even replace damaged parts, then one certainly cannot add or subtract baffles to an already completed silencer. Which would be making design changes after you have made it.

You claimed "R&D" required someone to be a licensee. It does not.
A nonlicensee can Form 1 NFA firearms by the dozens as long as they pay the tax.
It's an expensive means of R&D, but perfectly legal for a nonlicensee.

Calling "R&D" paying for a bunch of silencer stamps is significantly different than design changes after you have made a single can.

No kidding. No one is arguing any different..
No where did anyone mention adding baffles after the silencer was completed.

*ahem*

...
A Form 1 is for "making" an NFA firearm.....be it SBS/SBR/AOW/Silencer. Any design changes would need to be done AFTER you have made it according to the Form 1 application you submitted.
...

Why not? "R&D" isn't regulated, just making. As long as your approved Form 1 silencer is "as described" on the application (caliber and length) you can drill more holes in each baffle, clip the baffles or add/subtract the number of baffles to your hearts delight. You just cannot make spares or baffles of a different type, as parts of a silencer are regulated just like a complete silencer.
Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )


That's correct.....but the maker of that Form 1 silencer can certainly perform design changes during the building process that do not require ATF approval or an SOT.

Your two statements above, taken together (which makes sense, because that's the order that you posted them) imply that as long as you kept the same type of baffle, you could certainly add or subtract the number of them as long as you had no spares on hand for as long as the silencer existed without any requirement to pay a tax on the new baffles you are jamming into your completed silencer.

I guess you could argue that you were only talking about adding or subtracting baffles before you finished building it... but then why would it matter if you have different baffle types? Nothing wrong from a legal standpoint with having radials following cones in a stack. There are even Form 1's out there that have been approved with a technical drawing and description for modular can with baffles that have two different bore sizes.

That's R&D....just don't use that design on your next Form 1 silencer.

An SOT is not required in order to perform gunsmithing on NFA firearms. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensed-gunsmith-receive-nfa-firearm-purposes-repair

And "because as the letter says"? Well, the approved Form 1 is what allows the applicant to make a silencer and all the parts inside it. While building the silencer, the maker is free to cram as many baffles of any design, of any angle, clipped or unclipped, of any material he so desires. If baffles #5 and #6 don't seat together as well as the maker wants, he most certainly can destroy/throw away #6 and replace it before completing his silencer. That isn't making extra parts, that isn't replacing parts, that's not a violation because the silencer has not been completed. Once completed? Your "R&D" on that silencer is done.....and as the letter from Bardwell is about making spares and replacement parts...I covered that in post #9.

No kidding.

Line in the sand? How about just following what's written in plain English in ATF regs?

That is not R&D on "a" silencer. The Form 1 maker doesn't get to say "that number of baffles in the can sucked" in the same way that he gets to say "that SBR barrel length sucked" after testing. That's the whole point of my original statement.

How about reading what people are writing in plain English? Singular words are singular.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Ok question....

Mares leg.... in the USA considered a handgun.
Replace the stock with a true rifle stock, it becomes a SBR without ever messing with the actual barrel, receiver, frame or any other mechanical working part of the firearm. Thus a form 1 has to be completed and addition info is required to be engraved on the mares leg.

1. I have done several internet searches in regards to then selling/transferring any nfa SBR to someone else.
The sale will be done with a form 4 I assume. But then my trust/name will be with the new owner?

2. If I do a form 1 as an individual, and later get a trust. Will it need to be engraved again with the trust name?

The Form 1 is to make & register a firearm, Form 4 is to transfer one that's already made.

If a Form 1 manufactured NFA item is later transferred on a F4, that doesn't change the maker. Ergo, it will transfer with the maker's info on the F4 and the engraving will remain.

 

[dogtown tom]

No, but your verbiage in post #9 was pretty ambiguous in that regard. It was cleared up in subsequent posts, though..

How in the world is this ambiguous?:
".....You just cannot make spares or baffles of a different type, as parts of a silencer are regulated just like a complete silencer.
Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )"

 

[dogtown tom]

....I cited the bardwell letter because it takes the letter of the law (any silencer part is, itself a silencer), and provides clarity on what that means for the Form 1 individual. If one can't even replace damaged parts, then one certainly cannot add or subtract baffles to an already completed silencer. Which would be making design changes after you have made it.

Now you are being annoying. AGAIN....I never wrote that one can "add or subtract baffles to an already completed silencer".

Calling "R&D" paying for a bunch of silencer stamps is significantly different than design changes after you have made a single can.

AGAIN, "R&D" is not only perfectly legal, but not mentioned AT ALL in ATF regulations. You have in your head a definition of "R&D" that ATF DOES NOT.
As far as "design changes"? That's the caliber and length as described on your Form 1. An applicant most certainly can make changes to his application before he has completed the making of the firearm design described on his Form 1.....as long as ATF NFA Branch approves that change. The Form 1 does not ask for the number of baffles, the type of material only the caliber and OAL for a silencer.

Your two statements above, taken together (which makes sense, because that's the order that you posted them) imply that as long as you kept the same type of baffle, you could certainly add or subtract the number of them as long as you had no spares on hand for as long as the silencer existed without any requirement to pay a tax on the new baffles you are jamming into your completed silencer.

That statement was an answer to the OP's question about a Form 1 SBR and you know that. The first sentence says what a Form 1 is for, the second says what can be done AFTER receiving a Form 1 tax stamp for an SBR.

That you are confused is your own fault, the OP started a thread about SBR's and you derailed with silencers.

I guess you could argue that you were only talking about adding or subtracting baffles before you finished building it... but then why would it matter if you have different baffle types?

Good grief.
When you apply for a Form 1 to make a silencer, you merely list the OAL and caliber. Baffle or monocore, what materials, and how many baffles is NOT LISTED. Meaning you can change anything you want up until your silencer is complete.

Nothing wrong from a legal standpoint with having radials following cones in a stack. There are even Form 1's out there that have been approved with a technical drawing and description for modular can with baffles that have two different bore sizes.

No kidding.

That is not R&D on "a" silencer. The Form 1 maker doesn't get to say "that number of baffles in the can sucked" in the same way that he gets to say "that SBR barrel length sucked" after testing. That's the whole point of my original statement.

That's not "R&D" to YOU. And as I've explained ad nauseum, if the maker doesn't like how his silencer sounds.....he can make another by paying the tax.
And as your original statement was: "...You, as a non-licencee, may not do "R&D" on a silencer....." any point is irrelevant because that statement is simply not true. No license is required to slice a silencer in half to make a cutaway, no license is required to make different designs on a Form 1.....and those actions are certainly part of "R&D".

How about reading what people are writing in plain English? Singular words are singular.

How about following this advice yourself?

 

[MachIVshooter]

How in the world is this ambiguous?:
".....You just cannot make spares or baffles of a different type, as parts of a silencer are regulated just like a complete silencer.
Didn't like how your first homemade silencer sounded? You Form 1 another one and use a different design...….that's R&D at $200 a pop. (pop get it? )"

Because it's not clear about the fact that ANY suppressor parts made by the F1 maker after the suppressor is complete are a violation without a new stamp, not just spares or different baffle types. Might lead one to believe that they can add more of the same type of baffle if they don't like how it sounds.