Background check at time of buying

[12many]

How does law enforcement, or anyone, know if a background check was done at the time of purchase?

Does the place that gets called keep a record of the serial number? If so, is the buyer name associated with the gun?

Or, does the gun shop keep the form? If so, is the buyer's name associated with it?

I ask because there is this talk of record keeping and I wonder how it is done now?

 

[AlbertH]

michigan

With handguns without a CPL, you fill out a purchase permit, take it to your local police, to have it approved. via the FBI National Criminal Database, If you have a clean bill of health they give you a permit to purchase which is good for 30 days. You use that permit to purchase the handgun. You take that permit to your local FFL and then he will give you a form that includes the serial number, type and brand of handgun and info about you. You have 10 days to turned into the proper police agency for your area. It is then entered into the MSP database.

A Michigan CPL requires a safety class and a clean bill of health via the FBI fingerprint database so once you have it all that is necessary to purchase a handgun is to show your CPL, lay down some plastic/cash, fill out paperwork, get paperwork, take it to the police department so they can enter it into the MSP Database.

Its been years since I have bought a shotgun or a rifle but basically, you fill out paperwork and sign it. Give it to the gunshop owner and if he has the proper software and internet, he can immediately do the FBI National Criminal Database check, otherwise it may take a day or two for an answer. If you come back clean you can then purchase it and take the rifle with. no registration of rifles or shotguns necessary.

If you buy a handgun from a private seller. you are required to fill out the paperwork, take it to the police and have it recorded with the MSP.

Nothing required on rifle or shotgun purchases from a private individual.

I would have to do some research as to whether you are liable should you sell to a person who is not allowed to own weapons.

I wrote this from memory but it is correct to the best of my knowledge. If I made any mistakes please forgive me and then provide the correction

BEWARE though. Every piece of paperwork you fill out requires a signature and falsifying any part of the paperwork is a felony and as we all should know a Felony conviction and you lose your second amendment rights.

If you are caught with an unregistered handgun in Michigan, it is a felony.

Al

 

[suemarkp]

Most places aren't as anal as Michigan. The proof of the check is the rub of why most don't want the check, as that causes a registration paper trail. In states with some type of permit or card, you'd just need to check the card for file some registration/de-registration paper work. You as the seller, could write down a card or license number.

You (as Joe CItizen) can't run a NICS check, a FFL has to do that for you. I think you have to actually use the FFL to transfer the gun from one person to another, so that FFL will have to enter it into his books, perform the NICS check, then transfer to buyer. So that FFL has the records.

How this can work is currently state dependent. If something Federal comes out, it will depend on how they implement it. It would be nice if we could call NICS and get some some sort of transaction number back. But what happens if you lose that number... Without registration, the authorities don't know who to go back to for proof of the check. You'd have to be rolled on by the person in trouble with the gun. He could just pull your name out of the phone book. What the ramifications of that are depend on what ends up in the law.

Best solution is don't let them pass a mandatory background check law.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

In Oregon I can run a background check through OSP (Oregon State Police) through the states FICS (Firearm Instant Check System) for a private party gun sale - it's not required for a face to face transaction but it is at gun shows.

The loophole is if you go accross the street to McDonalds, you are no longer at a gun show therefore you aren't required to do the background check.

If you have a FFL - your going to do the paperwork and background check, unless you want to lose your rights after the BATFE comes in and arrests you - a FFL holder usually won't put his own rights at risk for "you."

 

[Sam1911]

The law and practice on this varies from state to state.

Federally, there is no need for any background checking or paperwork when a gun is sold between individuals who are residents of the same state.

If you're buying from a dealer (or from a resident of another state, which must be transferred through a dealer) you'll fill out the federal form 4473 (all identifying info on you and the gun) which stays with the dealer. At that time the dealer will call the federal NICS number and give the computer your basic personal info, and tell it if you're buying a handgun or long gun. The computer will tell the dealer if you appear on a prohibited person list. The information collected during an APPROVED NICS call is discarded by the computer in 72 hours.

The dealer keeps your 4473 for 20 years and then may destroy it. UNLESS they go out of business, in which case they have to box up the files and mail them off to the BATFE to put in a warehouse somewhere.

 

[Twiki357]

Happy in Arizona

It's a lot simpler here. Fill out the 4473. FFL calls in the NICS and gets a proceed or records your CCW number on the 4473. You hand him the payment, he hands you the firearm and your on your way. Not applicable for face to face.

 

[USAF_Vet]

By 'warehouse' do you mean secret government database?

 

[Sam1911]

Yes. Now fetch me my tinfoil chapeau!

 

[crazyelece]

Anyone know exactly what the number the NCIS call gives? The dealer always writes a number on the 4473. I always figured it was a confirmation number of some sort so that a BATFE audit can verify a NCIS check was done since the NCIS system itself supposedly doesn't store the info.

 

[bldsmith]

NICS does not keep records of you or the firearm purchased, at least not supposed to. As mentioned earlier it is purge from the data base automatically. The number can be verified as valid for date and time. It only is a problem if the gun is used in a crime. Then the paper trail starts to unwind. The serial number is traced to the MFG who traces it to the first seller who should have been an FFL. Then from there it may or may not have been transferred via FFL. It can be tracked ffl to ffl until current owner is found or it falls of into never never land.

I witnessed such a track at the lgs. ATF had requested info on a specific SN. The FFL had to report what his records said. He had actually sold the gun twice. The last owner was who was reported.

 

[CapnMac]

By 'warehouse' do you mean secret government database?

Pretty sure it's the same former salt mine in KS that also stores every duplicate military & gov't record made since 1795. <G> Said records no doubt being in cardboard boxes jammed into standardized crates/containers and all at the mercy of who ever draws a check to label & catalog the incoming material 9which is then at the mercy of the gump with the pallet truck or forklift to slot the material away. <wry grin>

Now, we have many reassurances that "Proceed" data--other than the Audit Number are purged. I'd be more sanguine if such precision were averred about Denied and Delayed transactions. While a "Delay" clearly needs to be held for the investigative period, after that time has elapsed, of what value is "[name] of [physical address], [State] on [date] while attempting to buy [long arm|side arm|other] was Delayed"? Just from the programming standpoint, the Delay ought be resolved into either Proceed or Deny as a binary set, and the transaction closed.
This makes me less than sanguine.

 

[12many]

Good info.

It seems to me that the dealer having the records for 20 years is pretty close to 'record keeping'. There is a record of who bought what right? If the FBI or ATF goes to that shop the dealer has to give them or let them access the paper work right?

No tin foil here, but how is that not a record of all dealer sales that identifies the buyer and the guy?

 

[Sam1911]

It is. It is pretty far removed from some "database of gun owners" though as there's no way to survey all those records in all those filing cabinets in all those gun shops in all those states, to try and figure out who owns guns.

If a gun is found at a crime scene the investigators can contact the manufacturer and give them the model and serial number. The manufacturer will look up that number and tell the investigators what distributor bought that gun. Then the investigators can contact that distributor and give them the make, model, and serial number. The distributor will look through his records and tell the investigators to what gun dealer he sold that gun. The investigators can then contact that dealer and give them date the gun was delivered to their shop and the model and serial number. The dealer will then look through his records from that year, find that 4473 form, and tell the investigators what person originally bought that gun, and their address at the time.

Then the investigators can try to locate that person at that address. If no luck there, they can track down folks in that state with that name and see if they can figure out where that person might have moved, and if they're still in the state. If they can't find that person, the trail goes cold.

If, by chance, they can locate the original purchaser, they can inquire if that person still owns that gun, and if not, if they know the name and address of the next purchaser. There's no (federal) law that the seller has to even know the person's name he's sold a gun to, so if he says, "nope, sorry," the trail goes cold. If the gun was stolen, the trail goes cold. If at any point in the whole chain of custody one person doesn't have the contact info of the next owner, the trail goes cold. If at any point an owner moved to another state, the trail almost certainly goes cold. Etc. etc.

Tracking guns down that way is a bit of an investigative act of desperation. Few crimes are ever solved through information found this way as few traces would ever lead to the last person to have been in possession of that gun.

 

[12many]

Thanks Sam. Perfect answer.

I did not realize that all the records were there. That is big burden on the gun store owners to store all that data and pay for storage.

I agree that it would not be easy, but since the info is all there, it would only take the ATF picking up the documents and entering them in the database. While a big project, it would generate a database of all gun owners who bought through dealers in the last 20 years. This is different than the info not being available at all. Really, it seems like we are one act of legislation away (were the votes present) from having these records converted to a database.

Bringing this back to obama's proposal, I wonder if they are now proposing an electronic database or the same paper storage system, but for gun shows and private citizens?

Given all this info, it seems like with the passage of time the system moves closer to ownerhsip tracking, then to registration, which then provides the means for more control or confiscation.

 

[Ed N.]

The difference with this sort of record keeping is that it only works in one direction. Investigators who recover a gun can start at the manufacturer and trace the gun forward to the last purchaser who bought it through an FFL.

What they can't do is go backward from the gun owner. They can't type your name and SS number into a computer and get a list of all the guns you own.

The first type of record, which we have in place, has some marginal utility when a gun is recovered from a crime scene.

The second type of record, which we want to avoid at all costs, is useless for crime investigations and is only valuable for gun confiscation. Naturally, it's exactly the sort of record keeping that the anti-gun folks keep advocating.