Background check for all sales passes advances out of committee, exceptions for illegal immigrants

[Aim1]

How you make a something illegal for citizens but not illegal immigrants who are already criminals are beyond me.

From the article:

"Democrats, however, voted down one such amendment that would notify ICE authorities when an illegal alien fails a background check to purchase a firearm."


Believe me, if you break this law they will notify the proper authorities and you will be prosecuted.





https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/14/gun-control-bill-advances-committee/

 

[SharpDog]

Well, likely it won't become law in this congress but it portends what we'll face the next time the anti-2A forces are in control.

 

[Deanimator]

NO, I REFUSE.

 

[mistermills357]

They are going to close the gun show loophole, well that must be a good thing! I was so worried!

 

[Jim Watson]

Fifth amendment.
Requiring a criminal to report purchase of a firearm would be self incrimination which cannot be compelled. Already run through the courts on NFA.

 

[SilentStalker]

If that’s true how come they ask you to incriminate yourself on every 4473, assuming you were guilty of something?

 

[SilentStalker]

Fifth amendment.
Requiring a criminal to report purchase of a firearm would be self incrimination which cannot be compelled. Already run through the courts on NFA.

 

[Tommygunn]

We've known they've wanted to close the "gun show loophole" for a long time. It's boiling the frog slowly. This is DEAD ON ARRIVAL but we need to be cognizant of future actions by antigun forces; we won't always have a Republican senate and president.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Liberal la la land.

Strangle the citizens and give illegal foreigners unlimited freedom.

 

[CapnMac]

they ask you to incriminate yourself on every 4473, assuming you were guilty of something?

The 4473 is an affidavit, not an action. If you check a "No" box "Yes," the cops do not spring out of the ceiling and cart the miscreant away, the form is torn up and the party asked to leave the premises. So, no crime is committed.

NICS check comes back "Deny," again, LE does not bust from the back room upon the offender. The sale is terminated, and everyone parts ways with no crime committed.

The only thing a 4473 does is carry your oath or affirmation that the information is correct and complete. The criminal act occurs if the purchase is a straw man or a Prohibited Person evades the system.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Most anti-gun people refuse to discuss two aspects of "Gun Safety." There is no willingness to discuss how these law changes are to be enforced. There is no willingness to discuss the demographics of actual of gun violence. We need to get some solid information on gun violence. We need to get some firm answers on new enforcement. I want the right to be left alone minding my own business. I'm sick of this fake crap. I'm also getting ill at the reports of local anti-gun people getting death threats. The threats come after newspaper letters etc.

 

[Ignition Override]

The mainstream media Refuses to admit the very stark differences between the vast number of self-defensive situations with guns, first degree murder, or suicide.

They distort everything into "gun violence" because the uninformed masses do not want to be informed.
They prefer to be told both What and How to think by CNN, MSNBC etc. The media (or college class room indoctrinators) snap their fingers, the masses jump in blind obedience.

If a private gun sale were to be firmly linked to a future mass tragedy involving young people, even most pro-Sec. Amendment people might feel uncomfortable criticizing such a bill being enacted.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

One of the cures for all poor or fake information is constant flow of good information unemotionally presented without 2A rants. The best antiseptic is sunlight (OWH Jr). I have been in meeting where several individual participants claimed gun control would end death by suicide. I don't think these masses want to be uninformed. There's so much poo-poo being slung around it is impossible to make a reasoned decision. Demand good data and stop name calling.

 

[10mm Mike]

Most anti-gun people refuse to discuss two aspects of "Gun Safety." There is no willingness to discuss how these law changes are to be enforced. There is no willingness to discuss the demographics of actual of gun violence. We need to get some solid information on gun violence. We need to get some firm answers on new enforcement. I want the right to be left alone minding my own business. I'm sick of this fake crap. I'm also getting ill at the reports of local anti-gun people getting death threats. The threats come after newspaper letters etc.

We need to stop entertaining this bogus idea of "gun violence" in the first place. "Gun violence" is just an irrelevant subset of actual physical violence (i.e. regular ole violence), and THAT is what actually matters. Who the hell cares (and what the hell does it matter) if all "gun violence" drops to zero if the amount of overall violence (the stat that actually matters) sky rockets? Not to mention that "gun violence" is regularly surpassed by "knife violence", "baseball bat violence", "fist violence", "run people over with their car violence", etc... If these leftist gun grabbers actually gave a damn about the people that they claim to, they would stop using the term "gun violence" and turn their efforts towards violence in general, not an irrelevant subset that isn't even the majority subset.

We have solid information on violence and the demographics behind it. The reason there is no willingness to discuss is because the primary perpetrators are black men that often have gangs ties - and that fact doesn't suit their narrative. So, they pretend that it either doesn't exist or it is strictly due to racism, and then the discussion gets sidetracked.

But you make good points about how the anti gunners don't want to discuss many of the practical aspects of the things they are proposing. I submit that is because they are not operating in good faith, and I think the evidence supports that.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

We have solid information on violence and the demographics behind it.

There is bunches of Kool-Aid drinking going on in the anti-gun circles. That is one reason no solid responses are forth coming. What I see is emotional responses without regard to what's out there. Locally, what we got is bunches of thugs traveling by night in suv's intimidating their neighborhoods. I was in one meeting sharing about who shoots who and the danger of getting shot by police. The reply was there's shooting out in the county also. Yelling won't do. Hit the with solid stuff. Point is well made about data being there. Also, how about throwing in solid data about illegal immigrants.

 

[Spats McGee]

Fifth amendment.
Requiring a criminal to report purchase of a firearm would be self incrimination which cannot be compelled. Already run through the courts on NFA.

If that’s true how come they ask you to incriminate yourself on every 4473, assuming you were guilty of something?

We should all be familiar with the A5. Then there's U.S. v. Haynes (SCOTUS, 1968), which says that you can't convict a previously-convicted felon for failing to register a handgun, because that would violate the A5. Similarly, you can't convict a previously-convicted felon for failing to fill out a 4473.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

We need to stop entertaining this bogus idea of "gun violence" in the first place

Can't go a 100% with you. We are talking about violence on a continuum. You and I are having do deal with being made scapegoats for those who culturally deeply invested in gun violence on that continuum.. I cannot recall being involved in a "drive by." However, these people look at me as part of that scene because I own firearms. This view deals with their stereotypes and gross over generalizations. Also, there are at lease, by estimates, two hundred million or more firearms in private hands in the US. How are you going to monitor or control private sales? In the event of total gun bands are you going to manage the volume?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The thing that I think a lot of people either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge is it the end game is citizen disarmament it has nothing to do with curbing "gun violence".

These people are not stupid. They do know how guns work and if they don't they can afford to hire the best researchers in the world to tell them.

They are repeatedly caught lying and faking news stories like the "full semi automatic AR15". The media films themselves illegally transferring Firearms across state lines and nothing is done about it.

I'm sorry if that sounds tin foil hat and paranoid but they've stated numerous times their intent to ban entire classes of firearms nobody needs semi-automatic weapon.

That's the issue that we need to address. That's the issue that we need to make sure that people understand.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I'm sorry if that sounds tin foil hat and paranoid but they've stated numerous times their intent to ban entire classes of firearms nobody needs semi-automatic weapon.

I'd find it hard to disagree. My point is to counter their BS with solid stuff. Demand details. What does all this control mean in the end. What sort of gun police will we have. For example listen for shooting to report to gun police. Also, have neighbors turn firearm owners in to the authorities. Keep the anti's on the defense with real world stuff. Don't take any crap from them. No fake stuff.

 

[badkarmamib]

Demand details. What does all this control mean in the end.

BT,DT. All you get is a lot of emotions, feelings, and "do it for the kids". They don't want to discuss facts, because then they would have to admit that they are wrong.

 

[jmorris]

How you make a something illegal for citizens but not illegal immigrants who are already criminals are beyond me.

It’s a test. The good news is that you are not an idiot.

 

[Gridley]

We've known they've wanted to close the "gun show loophole" for a long time. It's boiling the frog slowly. This is DEAD ON ARRIVAL but we need to be cognizant of future actions by antigun forces; we won't always have a Republican senate and president.

A president who was fine with the bump stock ban. What makes you think he wouldn't sign this if it landed on his desk?

 

[Tommygunn]

A president who was fine with the bump stock ban. What makes you think he wouldn't sign this if it landed on his desk?

I think bump stocks were an easy low hanging fruit.
Many people have been suspicious of Trump's commitment to the 2A ---- I understand that. From a solely 2A standpoint, I myself am uneasy about him. His sons are, however, avid hunters and purportedly very pro 2A, and have "clued him in" on 2A matters. Or so I've been informed.

Philosophically, I oppose the BS ban. I also think it was done in a manner that left it wide open to judicial challenge. But, IMHO, it is not a great "hill to die on." We know the antis are on jihad against the 2A, but they're not going to stop, stock ban or else, and the fight is going to get harder when, someday, we have a Democrat president....and maybe they have the HOUSE and the SENATE.

Can you say President Alexandria Occasio-Cortez???

 

[Mowgli Terry]

You know there is a chance with honest to God conservative justices on the Supreme Court the 2A as an individual right could go up in smoke. The NRA may be significantly changed after an investigation follows the money. Also take a look at the numbers in the Presidential elections and the midterms.This is not left wing propaganda but a possibility.

 

[boom boom]

The 4473 is an affidavit, not an action. If you check a "No" box "Yes," the cops do not spring out of the ceiling and cart the miscreant away, the form is torn up and the party asked to leave the premises. So, no crime is committed.

NICS check comes back "Deny," again, LE does not bust from the back room upon the offender. The sale is terminated, and everyone parts ways with no crime committed.

The only thing a 4473 does is carry your oath or affirmation that the information is correct and complete. The criminal act occurs if the purchase is a straw man or a Prohibited Person evades the system.

Not quite true, you can be prosecuted if you answer a form 4473 in what can be construed as false information if that false information is material to the purpose of enforcing federal firearms laws. That was one of the two charges against a defendant in a case that went all the way up to the Supreme Court. The second charge was being a straw buyer. The first was making a false statement via the form 4473. In this case, the Supreme Court interpreted federal firearms laws regarding purchases very broadly in reach.

Abramski v. U.S. (2014) https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_5468.pdf

For a discussion of the issues involved,
https://legalinsurrection.com/2014/...s-narrow-reading-of-gun-straw-purchase-rules/
18 U.S. Code § 924. A1A, Penalties
(1)Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, subsection (b), (c), (f), or (p) of this section, or in section 929, whoever—

(A) knowingly makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter or in applying for any license or exemption or relief from disability under the provisions of this chapter (form 4473 among other forms);
. . . .
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

Make sure that you very carefully fill out these forms.