Backyard ranges? This is going to look bad for us

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sawdeanz

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http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ke-shift-gun-range-builders-next-move/2216240

First heard about this on the local talk radio station and found this article to back it up. A 21 year old self proclaimed libertarian builds a range in his backyard. Seems normal except from what I can tell this sounds like a regular suburban neighborhood, yet the local authorities claim they can't do anything about it.

What the article doesn't tell you is that the issue has already been resolved, as the local pro gun radio host (Mike Calta on FM 102.5) was able to get the man a range membership and he has agreed to take down the range.

Silly me I thought there were laws regarding discharging a firearm within city limits. But the other upshot is that the neighbors have used this to start a petition to explicitly ban backyard ranges, which I'm afraid will affect other, more responsible home and possibly professional ranges as well. What says you?
 
Part of the problem with this particular story is what was being considered a "gun range" by the individual who set this up:

Front_yard_gun_range_2541790000_13053896_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

No rear berm, no side protection, no noise baffling. Just a couple of pallets around a pile of sand.

I think we can all make arguments for gun ranges in urban environments... but I think those arguments also come with the stipulation that they are built to ensure the safety of everyone around them. Clearly, not the case here.
 
Slippery slope.

We have laws that will seriously pummel this dood if he actually harms anyone or anything. Or if he loses a bullet off the property and realistically threatens anyone or anything. In fact, there may yet prove to be other sorts of regulations which come down pretty hard on him if he fires any rounds. Because of the situation, there are going to be folks pouring through the books looking for everything they can lawfully hit him with.

And maybe there's nothing terribly wrong with that, considering the situation.

However, I can assure you we do not want the government(s) defining what a safe and lawful shooting range must look like. NOT AT ALL.

If he DOES ever cause any harm or realistic threat of harm, I rather hope they bury him under enough convictions and civil penalties to serve as a rather stark warning for the next self-proclaimed "libertarian" who thinks he needs to stretch his rights to the edge of just barely not killing someone else.





And if he doesn't.... well, I hope the non-event fades from memory as a dumb stunt and we go back to saner heads trying their hardest to act with their neighbors' safety foremost in their minds.
 
Sam1911 said:
However, I can assure you we do not want the government(s) defining what a safe and lawful shooting range must look like. NOT AT ALL.
Click to expand...

Sadly, we've already reached that point to an extent. Just try to open an indoor range without having OSHA tell you their ideas on HVAC.

However, I digress. I'm not suggesting we should allow the government to dictate how we build ranges. I'm suggesting that it's our responsibility as shooters to do so ourselves. And there are resources out there for less than the cost of a box of ammunition that will help everyone figure out what that should look like. There is simply no excuse to shoot on an unsafe range.

How much less of a story would this have been, or even a non-story at all, with the proper application of some rail sleepers and a couple metric yards of fill dirt?
 
Sadly, we've already reached that point to an extent. Just try to open an indoor range without having OSHA tell you their ideas on HVAC.
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Commercial ranges certainly are covered by Occupational safety and health laws because they have employees.

I'm talking about private or club ranges where that doesn't apply.

Getting into a situation where the state government is going to dictate what kind of facility you must have in order to discharge a firearm would be very very bad.

Not that this one goober is going to cause that to happen, but he's a good example of why rights and responsibility go hand in hand.
 
Being a safety professional, I deal directly with the osha regulations on a daily basis. Over the last decade we have seen very little changes in safety law, especially those written by government officials. What we have seen, and what I believe would be the case here, would be an inclusion by reference. Perfect example is the move away from "hazcom" to "GHS" which is put into law by referencing it in law books. Many ansi, astm, asse, etc standards have now been incorporated and included in the laws by reference. If a case of this type were to hit the law books it would most likely be an inclusion of an existing standard such as the NRA guidelines for a safe range. The govt. is too lazy and too clumsy to go after something like this from scratch.

I won't say that I'm in favor of allowing the govt to put further restrictions on our ability to shoot, but I do believe that it would not be as bad as some would think it would be.
 
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Sam1911 said:
Commercial ranges certainly are covered by Occupational safety and health laws because they have employees.

I'm talking about private or club ranges where that doesn't apply.

Getting into a situation where the state government is going to dictate what kind of facility you must have in order to discharge a firearm would be very very bad.

Not that this one goober is going to cause that to happen, but he's a good example of why rights and responsibility go hand in hand.
Click to expand...
Private ranges are only covered if they have 12 or more employees, AND those employees are not all family. Public ranges are exempt from enforcement but are expected to follow the same rules. Basically it's one govt. branch that would be auditing and fining another govt. branch to a point where the money would just swirl in the breeze due to constant pissing contest.

These provisions are why a lot of small business owners own multiple small businesses with a small number of employees, to avoid inclusion into coverage by OSH act law. Highly unethical, but it happens every day.
 
It was on the local news here last night. Idiot's(makes shooters everywhere look like loonies) back stop is entirely inadequate. His pile of sand doesn't fill or even come close to filling the space between the skids.
"...A 21 year old self proclaimed libertarian..." Who didn't appear able to spell libertarian or know what it means. And how does a 21 year old afford a house? Even if he's renting?
 
I believe I saw that one on local TV. The owner didn`t seem to think he was doing anything wrong. Looks like he was there long before the area was built up.

As far as I could tell, his "back stop" was a bunch of crap.

In the Orlando, other situations like that one have also been reported.

Cops show up.check things out. No harm. No foul. Neighbors, scared out of their wits.

Come on down to Fl if you want to have a back yard range. No rules just fire at will! :)
 
Florida, gun laws, 2A, common sense...

To my limited knowledge, the state of FL passed 2A/gun statues that prohibit cities or counties from anti gun or anti CCW ordinances.
The topic of private property ranges has come up on gun/tactics forums before. I wouldn't build one or shoot in a populated/residential area. Even with surpressed firearms, it seems dicey, :uhoh: .

To me it's not a legal or 2A issue as much as a safety or common sense issue.
The problem is that not all gun owners or 2A supporters can agree on what is best or what's "safe". These terms or conditions seem very subjective.
 
Sam1911 said:
...Getting into a situation where the state government is going to dictate what kind of facility you must have in order to discharge a firearm would be very very bad....
Click to expand...
Of course to a large extent that horse left the barn a long time ago.

There are all sorts of laws, ordinances, zoning rules, etc., telling us what we can and can not do on our property. There are myriad building permit/building code requirements. Many areas have architectural design standards or requirements. There are zoning ordinances prohibiting operating a business, or certain types of businesses, out of your home. In some areas laws prohibit working on your car or parking your boat on a trailer on your property within sight of a public road. I can remember when we could burn our leaves or trash on our property, but we can't do it (anywhere around here, at least) now.

Sam1911 said:
...he's a good example of why rights and responsibility go hand in hand.
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Yup. Many of those land use laws were a result, at least in part, of some folks doing something on their property which enough of their neighbors thought was irresponsible or obnoxious.
 
Sav .250 said:
...Come on down to Fl if you want to have a back yard range. No rules just fire at will!
Click to expand...
Unless enough of the neighbors decide to get together and file a suit to abate a nuisance. I'm don't know about Florida nuisance law, but that strikes me as a possible remedy. Certainly, if someone came to me for legal help with this sort of problem, that would be one of the first things I'd think of; and I'd start doing some in depth, serious research on the issue.

RustyShackelford said:
...The problem is that not all gun owners or 2A supporters can agree on what is best or what's "safe". These terms or conditions seem very subjective.
Click to expand...
Well the NRA has some resources, including a source book. It also looks like the State of Minnesota Department of Natural Resources has some ideas on the issue. And here's another resource.

Some of those resources are more geared toward commercial or large scale ranges. However, they show that the problems of designing a safe shooting range has been studied and considered, and that certain applicable standards/criteria/attributes have been identified.
 
I haven't looked into FL law, but I'd bet that the law on nuisances is pretty similar to AR law. There are public nuisances and private nuisances, and either is subject to abatement.

This may be moot, however, as it appears that Shooter's World has given the owner of the "range" (and I use the term loosely) a membership to their range in exchange for his dismantling the one at his house.

http://www.wtsp.com/
 
Post #14.....

I see the point of post #14. Safe and well made ranges, public or private are ideal.

Another good source are the US military Army/USMC/SF field manuals(FMs) or Training Manuals(TM). They are still around in printed formats and if I recall a CD-ROM(remember those :D ) had a full collection of 300-400 different military FMs.

I'll close by saying noise and environmental factors might involved.
 
This may be moot, however, as it appears that Shooter's World has given the owner of the "range" (and I use the term loosely) a membership to their range in exchange for his dismantling the one at his house.
Click to expand...

Excellent! Another group of shooters who understand that this guy has the potential to harm the greater community through his poor choices in expressing his rights and gives him an incentive to choose another path.




Maybe Shooter's World could next offer the Chipotle guys a couple of free gun cases and a place to park their rifles while they go eat... :neener:
 
RustyShackelford said:
...I see the point of post #14. Safe and well made ranges, public or private are ideal....
Click to expand...
Something else I should point out.

  • If you do the research and use the available information on designing and building safe ranges when you build yours and something goes wrong, you can point to what you did to try to be safe.

  • If you don't do the research and use the available information on designing and building a safe range and something goes wrong, the plaintiff will make a point of being sure that the jury knows about all the safe range resources out there and that you didn't bother with them -- thus helping convince the jury that you didn't use reasonable care.
 
The kid tore it down , radio jock bought him a membership to local gun range, kid is happy libs are never happy . Dem. legistator has introduced bill to make ranges in residential neborhoods illegal
 
Silly me I thought there were laws regarding discharging a firearm within city limits.
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Most do, but some don't have specific laws prohibiting it.
Where I live there wasn't a gun specific law until last year. People who were caught discharging firearms in the city limits were cited with a noise ordinance violation. It carried about a $100 fine IIRC. Now they made a law strictly prohibiting the discharge of firearms which carries a higher fine.

So most will have it, but it is entirely possible that some don't.
 
I have a 50y range. Its backed by an upslope 400 acre chunk of state timberland. I use 3 4ft thick, 12ft wide logs as a backstop. Even *if a bullet penetrated a 4ft thick log, the slope would stop it.

Back yard ranges are ok, if your not an idiot about setting it up.
 
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