Bad AD today..not me. kinda explicit.

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Ok, so you have to pull the trigger

You don't have to cover the muzzle with your hand, or point it at something you don't want a hole in. I clean weapons in a basement. Whenever (WHENEVER!) I pull a trigger, I am pointing it at an interior wall with dirt behind it. If it goes off, I've clearly had an ND. But there's no new hole in me or anyone else. Fresh undies and some time for the ringing in my ears to diminish and life goes on.

I shoot a Glock 21 occasionally. When I am fieldstripping it, I reach up from underneath and draw down on the slide release, keeping my hand from covering the muzzle. Reaching down from the top with the palm of your hand over the muzzle when you pull the trigger is a bad plan. :scrutiny:
 
You can have an accident, meaning something is totally unintentional, and still have liability. If lightening strikes my tree and part of it breaks off and strikes my neighbors house, I am liabile although I was absolutely not negligent. Having a definition of negligent REQUIRE liability, and accident require NO liability is incorrect.
 
Oh, and TX1911fan...

Your mistake is in thinking that exercising reasonable care will always result in a positive outcome. That's unrealistic. You can watch for gravel all you want but you will not always see it. I know this first hand. You will learn it if you ride a motorcycle long enough. If you don't watch that's negligent. If you do watch and fail to see that's NOT negligence. It is a failure, and the results are your fault (note I never blamed the road surface or anyone else) but it is not negligence.

No court would call it negligence.

The NTSB would not call it negligence. Read some of their aviation accident reports if you want: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

No reasonable person would call it negligence.

I agree you can have liability for a complete accident. Not sure who was saying otherwise though.
 
Justin: Who cleans a gun in his bedroom?

Guilty! (do it on my desk though)

It's a Glock 22 to.

Although I can't figure out how this Guy "Forgot" to check for a Chambered Round...
That's the first thing I always do, It's like a Reflex.
 
Ed, it would depend on what a reasonable person under the circumstances would do. If a reasonable person would not have seen the gravel, then you are correct, it is not negligence. That is my point. The definition of negligence is based on that standard, not on liability. For example, if you slipped on the gravel even after exercising reasonable care and hit a car, even though you were not negligent you would still be liable for the damage. Hence, your definition of negligence being when you cause harm and accident when you don't cause harm is erroneous.

Oh, and Justin, when I got my first shotgun I used to sit on the floor of our master bedroom and clean it while watching TV. Then my wife kicked me out, so now I have to do it in my office. Clean my guns, that is, not the other "it."
 
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The M&P's sear deactivation lever is a clever idea and is effective if you bother to use it. Unfortunately it is not necessary to use it. After rotating the disassembly lever, while easing the slide off, you can pull the trigger as the slide closes on the barrel and that will enable you to get the gun apart.

I agree that is not required to use the sear lever, however, it is not recommended, or even suggested as possible by S&W to use the trigger to release the striker. In it's cocked state, the striker is being held by both the sear and the trigger lock. When you pull the sear lever down, the trigger lock still holds the striker in place. The trigger lock, in normal shooting use, is pushed up before the sear breaks, so the sear takes only a momentary load of the striker-spring's tension, then the whole slide moves back very quickly.

When you strip by pulling the trigger, the sear takes all of the weight of the spring as you move the slide forward, not back, extendig the duration and the stress on it. This has resulted in chipped, cracked, or broken sears and/or strikers. Not to mention it's a pain if the take-down lever slips back a bit and locks the slide half-on.
With the fact that every gun owner has a cleaning rod that they can use to flip the lever (not to mention the provided tool), there is absolutely no reason to play it dumb and strip an M&P "Glock" style. And as stated above, the fact that the XD and M&P require you to rack the slide to take-down adds a level of safety that Glock could easily immitate.
 
when i do pull the trigger, the muzzle is pointed at my computer CPU, which is in front of a HUGE filled with paper Filing cabinet, and behind that a cinder block wall.

You know, sometimes I want to pull the trigger with the muzzle pointed at my computer...


But under most circumstances, wouldn't that make the ND unneccesarily costly?
 
TX1911fan, I'll buy that.

It still leaves us saying that not all hardware failures are accidental and not all human failures are negligent, which was my main point. You can have a negligent discharge that is caused by a mechanical failure (e.g. if the gun was manufactured incorrectly or had been monkeyed with... improper trigger jobs would be a great example) and you can have non-negligent discharges caused by human failures ("I was following all the rules but I wasn't actually watching my finger -- I just knew where it was just like I know where my feet are without looking -- and somehow I was wrong or I had a muscle spasm or something" -- that's hypothetical and I suppose I should say that I've never had an AD or ND myself).

It's fun to think in black and white but we see in color for a reason.
 
I hope the guy who had the AD heals up and makes a full recovery! That has got to be one painful mother of a wound.
 
And JMB designed a gun that you have to fiddle with the muzzle to field strip.
I didn't see anyone answer this, so I will. No, you don't have to fiddle with the muzzle. You field strip it by holding the slide back at the appropriate notch and pushing the slidestop out and catching the recoil spring as you push the slide forward. Also, you can start by taking out the firing pin and extractor while the slide is locked back. I know on my bushing slide 1911, I can't turn the bushing while the gun is in battery, I have to take it out of battery to do that.
 
(I didn't read the thread.)

That sucks, but this is definitely a negligent discharge. Not that I'm holier than thou, but I have to say that he violated a few Safety Rules, obviously. It doesn't get much simpler than that. I appreciate these types of stories because I use them as refresher courses and learning experiences...the easy way.
 
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Ed Ames wrote:
The only time we should be talking about negligent discharges is when there is clear cut negligence which goes beyond self-harm and clearly endangers others who had no reasonable expectation of being endangered.

Hi Ed,

It's recklessness if the shooter is blatantly careless with a firearm. The case here is just plain old negligence. Others have done a pretty good job analyzing this clear case of negligence.

Regards,
Jake McCoy
 
The accusation:

And JMB designed a gun that you have to fiddle with the muzzle to field strip.

The response:

I didn't see anyone answer this, so I will. No, you don't have to fiddle with the muzzle. You field strip it by holding the slide back at the appropriate notch and pushing the slidestop out and catching the recoil spring as you push the slide forward.

Quite correct, and even though I don't usually do it that way...it's long been the preferred method for many people, especially the guns with tightly-fitted bushings. It also negates the chances of the spring plug gettin' loose and whackin' ya betwixt the eyebones, or bouncin' all over hell's creation.
 
I disagree categorically with all the lawyer speak for the same reason I disagree with the statement that you should "treat every firearm as if it's loaded until you verify otherwise".

I go with "All guns are always loaded" because intelligent people are going to use that as an impetus to follow the other rules, and stupid people are going to assume it's loaded and treat it that way. If you dumb it down with all the extra words, you're setting yourself up for exactly what this guy did: he verified that it was unloaded and still blew off his hand.

Ed, I want to know if you're making a point other than a legal distinction. When I posted originally, I posted because nobody brought up that it's the dingbat GLOCK owner's fault that he's missing half his hand. A legal distinction doesn't help other people not do that, any more than watering down "all guns are always loaded" does. It may protect some of Gaston's assets in the future, but I'm sure Gaston has enough assets to hire a lawyer who speaks English well enough to point out the following in a court of law....

Whether that's an accidental fault or a negligent fault or a San Andreas Fault is not the point other "negligence" people and I are trying to make. I was trying to point out that negligence, this negligence:

dictionary.com said:
neg·li·gent /ˈnɛglɪdʒənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[neg-li-juhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. guilty of or characterized by neglect, as of duty: negligent officials.
2. lazily careless; offhand: a negligent wave of his manicured hand.

is what blew off his hand, not an accident:

ac·ci·dent /ˈæksɪdənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ak-si-duhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
4. chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.

Given that non-lawyers are governed in their day-to-day business by everyday, non-legal, dictionary semantics, I think it's our duty to point out that lady luck had nothing to do with this.

I'm not concerned with whether someone gets sued over the verbage we use. I'm concerned with helping whomever I can to realize that this is a completely preventable tragedy.
 
You really don't know what you are talking about

Nice. Also incorrect... which is, I suppose, why you edited your statement. Anyway... moving on...

Beatnik,

The distinction between accidental and negligent doesn't really aid in preventing incidents like this. In fact it may interfere with that message and prevent proper preperation. If you tell someone, "accidents are mechanical, everything else is negligent," they can conclude, "So long as I keep my stuff in good repair and am super conscientious nothing bad will ever happen." That is an incorrect conclusion caused by an incorrect premise.

In fact from a safety perspective it might be better to stress the accidental nature of discharges because it keeps people from saying "I trust myself therefore nothing bad will happen."

Bad stuff happens. Mechanical devices fail. People fail. You can't prevent that... all you can do is teach people ways of dealing with those realities. Teach people to do things that will reduce the harm, like the sand bucket. I have a planter (filled with sand) in my 2nd floor apartment for just that reason... it gives me a known safe target and if I ever do make a mistake it will limit the harm. There are other things you can do to mitigate against disaster.

But not if you black and white the issue with "everything is negligence".



Beyond that, I do think it will bite us that a few gunners have decided to classify everything as negligence even when they don't know any of the facts. All we really know in this case is that his hand was shot. For all we know he was playing stupid games (spin the glock) and used the "cleaning" excuse because he was embarrassed. It is equally possible that he did have an accident of some sort. I'm not ruling out negligence by any means but to jump up and say categorically that it was is absurd.

The use of negligence as every explanation isn't even good training. When learning a physical skill like flying you are taught about many mistakes, and you are taught how to deal with many situations. You are taught how to watch for traffic, how to land the plane, and so on. Every year many people fail to live up to that training and they die. Some of them are negligent. Others are NOT. The negligent people are just a warning... don't be stupid, bad stuff will happen. That's all they are. That leaves you other cases, other incidents, you can learn from where the issue wasn't negligence and it wasn't (entirely) equipment failure... it was a sequence of events that were not handled correctly. Usually those sequences start with something minor going wrong in a way that could have been dealt with, but the error isn't caught and so the situation becomes disasterous. In the end the fault still goes back to the pilot but because you are paying attention to the sequence of events instead of stamping every incident "negligence" you can learn more about what to do.

Accidents happen without mechanical failure and without negligence. Was this one of those? I don't know.
 
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Ed, are you a lawyer in the U.S.?

If so, I hope you recognize that if someone else were injured or killed, the main theories of liability would be negligence or involuntary manslaughter, respectively.
 
Why don't we just call it an unintentional discharge? That would cover both "Negligent" and "Accidental" in one fell swoop.

i.e. If the gun goes bang and we didn't want it to go bang...it's an unintentional discharge, whether it was caused by a mechanical failure or it was the fault of the nut holding the grip.
 
I don't know of any striker fired pistol that has the means to decock the striker, except by pulling the trigger.
The Walther P99 QA has a decocker so you can strip the gun without pulling the trigger. I think a decocker like that on the other pistols with a similar action might save alot of ND's each year.

If you tell someone, "accidents are mechanical, everything else is negligent," they can conclude, "So long as I keep my stuff in good repair and am super conscientious nothing bad will ever happen." That is an incorrect conclusion caused by an incorrect premise.
I guess thats one way to view it but I think what most people see in that is "gun accidents almost never happen, if your gun goes off its because you screwed up. Be careful." Ymmv.
 
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