Bad experience with the TSA

[paradox998]

Took trip this week. In my checked luggage I had a wooden stock for an m1 carbine and several parts (slide, bolt, springs, sling, trigger assembly), but NO RECEIVER or barrel for that matter. I had mailed the receiver and barrel to my self (I have a c&r) so that I would not need to fly with a rifle. Anyway, I check the bag and went to the gate and shortly there after I get a call to return to the counter. At the counter I was met by three TSA agents and two sheriff deputies. "You didn't declare at gun!!" they said. I politely told them that there was no a gun in the bag, no receiver, no barrel only small rifle parts and a stock. I politely told them that a serialized frame or receiver was considered a "gun" under AFT definition of a "gun". The sheriff say "Don't tell me what a gun is" I did not respond, because he clearly did not know the law. After three TSA supervisor consulted they said I could check the bag only if I agreed it was a gun and declared it and locked the bag. Problem was, no keys with me.

I had to reschedule the flight and go home to get the keys. Got back to the airport went to the same clerk and asked her if she wanted to see me lock the bag this time and I did. The only reason for locking a bag would be because of a gun inside. Five minutes later, another call on the pa. Again, you did not declare a gun. Well yes I did about an hour ago when you asked me to do this the first time and sent me off to get suitcase keys.

Clearly TSA and the local sheriff have know idea what a gun even is and what their regulations are. I feel so safe knowing the caliber of government employees who protect our airways.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Know the law. Can't expect, them to know the law . Their not paid for that . Semi working welfare is what that job is.

 

[bikemutt]

Sounds liike a couple lessons learned:just check the rifle, and bring the key. Sorry you had a bad day.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Was the "bag" hard sided? Cases used to transport "firearms" must be hard sided. If your "bag" was not hard sided, it is just another indication of their ignorance.

 

[jehicks87]

I don't see why you conceded in the first place? They can't do anything but cause you to miss your flight, in which case they would be the ones to reimburse your flight.

Or am I missing something?

 

[RatDrall]

Or am I missing something?

Yes, arguing with law enforcement is generally a terrible idea, they are ALWAYS right and are basically free to make up the law as they go.

You could sue them, if you have the tens of thosuands of dollars to pay your lawyer, and a lot of time to see it to the end, understanding that a jury of morons might disagree with you in the end.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Here is the TSA page dealing with firearms: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

It states that firearms must be in checked baggage:

MUST be unloaded, packed in a locked hard-sided container, and declared to the airline at check-in.

Whereas firearm parts simply need to be in checked baggage, no word about locked containers or notifying anybody.

It's allways a good idea to have the regs with you when flying, or you could of asked the TSA suporvisor to pull the regs and show you what part you are violating...

However, when dealing with stupidity in positions of authority it is sometimes wisest to take the path of least resistance. In your shoes I probably would have done the same(and felt the same about it).

In the future, just fly with the rifle. I have done it several times without hassle.

 

[ATBackPackin]

If it was just the airline agent or TSA I would have pointed out the regulations. However since LEO's were involved, that is an argument you are not going to win. The only way to beat the police is in court.

It really sucks but I agree that next time you should just travel with rifle assembled. When you try to outsmart idiots they get confused and assume you are doing something wrong.:banghead:

 

[OldMac]

For every flight, I print a fresh set of the airline and tsa regs and carry them with my travel papers. That way I am not forced to argue with them. Say very little and hand them their rules. They get to argue with themselves. I also expect to encounter idiots so don't create situations where idiots have to think. gun parts Look like a gun on the scanners screen. Why do that to them? The deputy is likely the only one that knew law and jargon about the definition of a gun and wanted you to know he wasn't gun illiterate like the others. However, he wasn't going to trump them on their policies since he is not sworn to uphold corporate or tsp policies which can be changed on a whim.

 

[ultradoc]

That stinks. Sorry about all the hassle. Maybe next time bring a printed copy of the TSA website that is highlighted about gun reg. Good luck

 

[BADUNAME37]

The past two or three times I have flown were such a hassle that the delays plus getting to the airport EARLY, just to WAIT, ended up making the entire journey the same length of time as if I would have driven the 400 to 700 miles between the several times I last flew.

It will be a long time before I consider flying again, for that very reason.

I had a connection to meet at an airport halfway and the delay of the first flight of about five hours due to mechanical malfunction and them having to run most of the fuel out before landing, made me miss my connection.

Then, on top of all that, you wonder if your luggage will arrive at the same airport and at the same time you do!

 

[pintler]

OP: if you have the time to write a letter, you could write to perhaps a regional TSA supervisor and the sheriff (the actual sheriff, not the deputy), quote the code that defines 'gun' as the receiver, and ask what definition they are using if they aren't using that one. It might :-( result in a training memo or something that would help the next traveler.

Alternatively, file a complaint with the sheriff's dept.

 

[fal762x51]

Firearms parts are treated (apparently) the same as firearms as far as the TSA is concerned.

Here is a link to their webpage that deals with the transport of firearms and parts:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Before dealing with the TSA or attempting to travel with a firearm or parts it is wise to read over their material to know what you can and can't do. I believe they were probably correct this time. They don't seem to differentiate between a firearm and firearm parts, but their webpage is vague.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

uh oh you gonna interject facts?

 

[nigmalg]

Travelers may only transport unloaded firearms in a locked, hard-sided container in or as checked baggage. Firearms, ammunition and firearm parts are prohibited from carry-on baggage.

Sorry, you were wrong and TSA was right. It's stupid, and pointless, but it does say right at the top of the TSA's "Travel with a Firearm" website:

I thought he was checking this baggage?

 

[cane]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, since the serialized part of a firearm constitutes a "firearm" why didn't you just ship the complete carbine to yourself. Or, just put it in your checked baggage? Why take it apart?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well I guess it's more like, TSA is "more" right than it seems here, not that they are completely right or legally right.

They, like most of these agencies, are actually pretty good at following procedures, sometimes too good. Here's what I mean by that:

If you follow the webpage linked above you see this statement:

Failure to adhere to the following regulations will preclude passengers from traveling with firearms, ammunitions or firearm parts:

Then there is a list of things. TSA is going to make you follow all of them, since their rules don't say "unless" etc. One of the things in the list is:

The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.

So what you have here is a very poorly written policy, which is pretty obvious. But, you have guys who are absolutely NOT going to attempt to try to interpret the law and decide what a firearm is or isn't. They are going to follow every item in that list, one of which includes putting "firearms" in a hard sided case. From the statement starting the list, your average non-gun type person is going to assume that a firearm is "firearms, ammunitions or firearm parts". It's wrong. We know it, but TSA is always right in reality. The thing about TSA , and why they are so frustrating, is that you don't have any recourse against them when it matters. By the time you get around to complaining or proving yourself right you have missed your flight.

In the case of the OP, he was right technically, but a reading of the TSA's document from the point of view of a non gun person changes the meaning quite a bit it seems.

Now that it's over though, the OP should write some letters and fill out all the complaint paperwork. Will it do any good? Who knows, but it would be worth taking the time in my opinion.

Can't defend the TSA but the reality is we have to understand what we are dealing with here. Their rules are vague and their people are not going to take any initiative to make an exception that might get them fired.

 

[Sky]

At last count there were 65,000 TSA officers/supervisors. National Parks have them now or so I was told....I am so glad and feel so much safer knowing they are protecting the this proud land of the free, home of the brave, country of ours; maybe we can hire some more and put them at the shopping malls and all schools to include kindergartens. I heard of some kid somewhere drawing a gun on a sheet of paper and getting expelled a while back....Served the little bugger right!

Hey they could assign an agent for neighborhood watch!! Maybe move in with us (think I have an extra room) and then we could all get rid of our guns...Wow I need to write my Congressman I may be on to something!!

One thing I read by their PR S.P. that they were able to intercept over 1100 guns from getting on aircraft but do not remember the time frame they were referencing..Maybe now it is 1101..

Just glad for you there will hopefully not be any other problems associated with this encounter...

 

[hso]

Why didn't you ship the entire gun instead of hauling in your luggage?

 

[Balrog]

I thought he was checking this baggage?

He did put it in checked baggage, but did not declare firearm parts.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The TSA is wrong. It does not matter if they publish their errors on a website or not. In the actual Federal Regulation, 49 CFR 1540.11 there is no mention of firearm parts. Although, I too am curious as to why the OP seperated the gun into parts and shipped some and carried others. Seems like it would be much less headache and hassle to do one or the other with the complete gun.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.9.2.10.6&idno=49

§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
(a) On an individual's person or accessible property—prohibitions. Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, an individual may not have a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property—

(1) When performance has begun of the inspection of the individual's person or accessible property before entering a sterile area, or before boarding an aircraft for which screening is conducted under this subchapter;

(2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area; or

(3) When the individual is attempting to board or onboard an aircraft for which screening is conducted under §§1544.201, 1546.201, or 1562.23 of this chapter.

(b) On an individual's person or accessible property—permitted carriage of a weapon. Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply as to carriage of firearms and other weapons if the individual is one of the following:

(1) Law enforcement personnel required to carry a firearm or other weapons while in the performance of law enforcement duty at the airport.

(2) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in accordance with §§1544.219, 1544.221, 1544.223, 1546.211, or subpart B of part 1562 of this chapter.

(3) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in a sterile area under a security program.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.

 

[Birch Knoll]

The TSA is wrong.

This is usually a pretty good working assumption.

 

[TexasRifleman]

This is usually a pretty good working assumption.

But the problem, and the reason they are such a dangerous agency, is that the time it takes to prove them wrong means you miss your flight and it appears that they have no accountability.

That's what I mean when I say above that the low level agents on site are "right". They follow what's written and they are not about to deviate from that at all, even if the written policy is wrong.

And the cost of arguing with them is missing your flight or even arrest.

That's why the OP should file a complaint after the fact.

 

[TexasRifleman]

A few posts have been deleted. Please keep the political commentary out of this thread.

 

[Cosmoline]

How are they defining firearm and weapon? There's nothing expressly stating that the definition of "firearm" will match the definition used under the NFA for interstate transfer purposes. I would not want to get crosswise with them on this.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...2.10.6&idno=49