Bad guys use 'good guys' to get their guns

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http://www.startribune.com/local/89652512.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUT


Bad guys use 'good guys' to get their guns


It's hard to identify and prosecute straw buyers, people with clean records who sell guns to criminals.

By JAMES WALSH, Star Tribune

Last update: March 31, 2010 - 11:30 PM


Brian Greer Murphy's shopping list for his gang-banger customers was extensive, if repetitive.

Hi-Point .380-caliber semi-automatic pistol. Hi-Point .45-caliber semi-automatic pistol. Hi-Point .9mm semi-automatic pistol. Hi-Point, Hi-Point, Hi-Point.

From July 15, 2002, to Dec. 9, 2002, Murphy bought 73 firearms -- almost all of them Hi-Point -- for criminal customers who could not legally buy their own. Yet it was the single, unloaded .45-caliber gun wedged between the seat and floor of his car, found last year by South St. Paul police in a traffic stop, that put him away for more than three years.

Prosecutors were able to obtain a heavier sentence for the one gun, thanks to his prior felony conviction for selling lots of guns.

While that ends Murphy's career as a gun runner, the problem of straw purchasers -- people with clean criminal records who buy guns for criminals who can't -- still vexes law enforcement. Time and again, guns bought by straw purchasers show up at crime scenes months, and sometimes only days, later.

"Almost all firearms in the U.S. originate with a lawful source," said Bernard Zapor, special agent in charge of the St. Paul division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). "But, at some point, they leave the legal retail process and hit the open exchange."

"The harsh reality of gun crime in America is that they're sourced from the gray market," he said.

Loopholes

Federal law makes it illegal for a convicted felon to buy or possess a firearm. It also is illegal for someone to buy a handgun for somebody else. When you buy a gun from a licensed dealer, you sign a form saying you are buying the gun for yourself.

You need a federal license to go into the gun-selling business. But nothing in the law forbids somebody from buying a gun -- or guns -- for themselves and selling it to somebody else later. The Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives Americans the right to bear arms. It does not require ordinary people to keep records of the guns they sell, and they are not required to do background checks on the people they sell them to.

That makes sifting the straw purchasers out of thousands of legal gun buyers and sellers a tough task, officials say.

Lots of guns

One way federal officials can spot straw buyers is when they buy a lot of guns in a short period of time. Licensed gun dealers are required to file paperwork when people buy three handguns or more in a period of seven days.

That may be what first got Murphy on investigators' radar.

For example, in September 2002, he bought 11 handguns at Polar Bear Ordinance in Woodbury, including six from Sept. 3 through Sept. 8 and three more on Sept. 15, 16 and 17. In all, Murphy bought 39 guns from Polar Bear from August through December 2002.

Which raises a question: Didn't the dealers get suspicious?

The folks at Polar Bear Ordinance, located in a beige split-level home in a quiet Woodbury neighborhood, did not return calls seeking comment. Other licensed dealers who supplied Murphy also did not comment for this story.

John Munson, owner of Bill's Gun Shop and Range in Robbinsdale, said his staff keeps the necessary paperwork for all gun sales -- and his workers are vigilant for suspected straw buyers. Sometimes, such as when a girlfriend is asking for a gun she isn't familiar with, it's easy to tell, he said. Often, it isn't. Sometimes, legitimate buyers simply like buying a lot of guns.

"For some, it's like women buying shoes," Munson said.

Gun dealers can refuse to sell a gun to anyone for any reason, Munson said. It's a point driven home by the ATF, which has launched a public education campaign called "Don't Buy for the Other Guy." But while such programs help, Munson said, they aren't always effective.

"I tell my people all the time, 'If something doesn't feel right, call it in,'" Munson said. "But the truth is, mean people suck. And they're going to find a way around it."Often, guns bought by straw buyers soon show up at crime scenes. If investigators trace a lot of those guns back to a single buyer, they can sometimes build a case, Zapor of the ATF said.

While officials would not give specifics -- gun tracing data are not public -- law enforcement sources say "several" guns bought by Murphy were either used in crimes or were recovered on the streets.

Often, such guns are of a make, model and caliber popular with criminals, said Sgt. John Engle of the Minneapolis Police weapons unit. Hi-Points, like the ones Murphy bought, are such "crime guns" because they are less expensive.

"They turn up all the time," Engle said.

But the lack of a paper trail after the first purchase makes it hard to connect straw buyers to crimes. The lack of prior criminal records makes the penalty for being a straw buyer usually only a couple of years in prison -- not always a deterrent, officials say.

It certainly wasn't for Murphy, 32, who has struggled for years with drug addiction.

In October 2003, he was sentenced to two years in prison and three years supervised release for all those guns. Soon after he got out, he began violating conditions of his release and going back to jail.

Then, last April, he was caught with a gun and a meth pipe in South St. Paul. Murphy's attorney, Rachael Goldberger, said he hoped to sell the gun to buy methamphetamine. U.S. District Judge Richard Kyle sentenced him to 37 months in prison.

Federal investigators find solace knowing that Murphy's straw-buying career is over. Once, he was known as "the guy who can get guns."

Now, that's another guy.

James Walsh • 612-673-7428
.
 
I read a lot of "how horrible it is that people can buy lots of guns at once, and no background checks for private sellers!" in that story. Also, "Hi Points are just crime guns, nothing else!"
BUT, the perpetrator is said to be "struggling" with a drug addiction. Can't POSSIBLY be HIS fault, must be the guns!!!!
 
So I know for a certainty that they've been investigating me, I've bought a boat load of guns over the past three years, over two-dozen and if I'm of a mind I'll sell off the ones I decide I'm not esprecially enamored of!
The whole thing, the 2nd Amendment, all of it, it's a lie, we have no rights and any competent criminal defense attorney will tell you as much!
 
While that ends Murphy's career as a gun runner...

Well...for a year, anyway. (Inmates are commonly released before serving even half the sentence imposed upon them.)
 
Prosecutors were able to obtain a heavier sentence for the one gun, thanks to his prior felony conviction for selling lots of guns.

While that ends Murphy's career as a gun runner, the problem of straw purchasers -- people with clean criminal records who buy guns for criminals who can't -- still vexes law enforcement.

The article basically says that getting caught with the second gun is what put him out of the straw purchase business. Seems to me like the first felony conviction, making straw purchases, is what put him out of business. While he might have been still been involved in gun dealing, I don't think he obtained that one from an FFL after his first felony conviction.
 
"Licensed gun dealers are required to file paperwork when people buy three handguns or more in a period of seven days."

Really? I wasn't aware of this. Is it federal or Minnesota law?
 
"Licensed gun dealers are required to file paperwork when people buy three handguns or more in a period of seven days."

Really? I wasn't aware of this. Is it federal or Minnesota law?
Federal from the Federal Firearms Regulation Guide (ATF Publication 5300.4)

(3) (A) Each licensee shall prepare a
report of multiple sales or other dispositions
whenever the licensee sells or
otherwise disposes of, at one time or
during any five consecutive business
days, two or more pistols, or revolvers,
or any combination of pistols and revolvers
totaling two or more, to an unlicensed
person. The report shall be
prepared on a form specified by the Attorney
General and forwarded to the office
specified thereon and to the
department of State police or State law
enforcement agency of the State or local
law enforcement agency of the local
jurisdiction in which the sale or other
disposition took place, not later than the
close of business on the day that the
multiple sale or other disposition occurs.
 
"Bad guys use 'good guys' to get their guns"


Apparently Murphy wasn't a 'good guy'. He had a problem with drugs and needed help. He bought the cheap guns and sold them for a profit to support his drug addiction.
 
"Almost all firearms in the U.S. originate with a lawful source," said Bernard Zapor.

Yeah, the manufacturer.
 
NIJ Felon Survey reported by James D. Wright and Peter Rossi in ''Armed and Dangerous" (felons and their guns) Aldine 1985/1986: most crime guns come from fences, burglars, and theft by the criminal; then, used guns from strangers, friends or relatives (private transactions).

Prof. Marvin "I hate guns" Wolfgang studied 588 homicides and reported that few could have been prevented if a gun were not present and that guns used in homicide were often street sales.

Bonnie and Clyde got BARs from National guard armories; John Dillinger stole tommy guns from Illinois police stations; Ma Barker & Sons bought stolen Army weapons from fences; Al Capone put out a $3,000 bounty for tommy guns, no questions asked, when the retail price was $200.

When I was seventeen I acquired a revolver sold by a NY gambler at a TN/VA state line bar for gas money. Favored street crime guns were police .38s and army .45s (but they would take anything that could be stolen, extorted or bribed).

Back in the 1980s, the back rows of flea markets were often a source of questionable guns.

Bad guys sometimes use 'good guys' to get guns. Bad guys sometimes use 'good guys' to get alcohol, or other contraband. But blaming 'good guys' for the black market misses the point. There are fewer 'bad guys' than 'good guys' so it would be easier to concentrate resources on going after the 'bad guys' than going after the 'good guys'.

The contribution of 'straw sales' and 'gunshow loophole' to the gun crime problem is statistically small. Which raises the question of why focus on legal sales. At least Ann Pearston of the British gun control campaign had the honesty to admit her goal was to eliminate legal guns from the lawabiding, and she did not expect illegal guns or gun crime to be affected by the 1996 UK bans.

ADDED: The HiPoint as "crime gun" meme is annoying: check the ATF trace reports on stolen guns traced or guns traced in crime: the top ten in stolen or crime gun traces will always include some inexpensive high volume models but also police and military sidearms as well.
 
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I am curious, since the "system" semi-worked here. He WAS on their radar because of the sales reporting law. They just lacked info to take it further.

Can anyone think of a way to allow officers to better catch/detect these cases without trouncing the crap out of the second amendment? I cannot think of much. The only way to really know is to register every single gun then: 1. Require owners to "prove" they still have them time to time OR hold them legally liable for anything that happens with the guns registered to them.

I will say right now, I am NOT cool with that.

The problem is many legal gun owners and collectors will buy a "lot" (lot being gauged purely by the amt where they are reported) of guns as stated by more than a few members here. They are completely legit, and reasonable purchases AND sales. I don't see how to do it without some very unpalatable registration and even then, I doubt it will work 100% or even 90% of the time. The only reason I even concern myself with it is sooner or later stories like this will push lawmakers to enact some law to prove they are doing something about it (even if the law sucks and as usual only hurts law abiding gun owners).

In your opinion, is there something the gun lobby could propose that would actually be effective in curbing these types of illegal sales without placing unreasonable hardships on us? I really am stumped.
 
I know I'm going to get flamed for this... If I worked for an FFL and someone wanted to buy/transfer 6 Hi-Point/Jennings/<$200 guns at one time all sorts of bells and whistles would be going off in my head. The FFL must have been desperate for money or had an under trained or corrupt employee. I can't imagine an FFL risking their license and an ATF shake down for such little gain.

I bought a Tokarav and CZ 82 online and had them sent to an FFL since I don't have a C&R. The FFL had to file an additional form with the local PD. I'm not sure if that was federal law or NH.
 
In your opinion, is there something the gun lobby could propose that would actually be effective in curbing these types of illegal sales without placing unreasonable hardships on us? I really am stumped.

Keep criminals in prison instead of letting them out after 6 months?

This isn't a gun problem or a gun law problem.

Most of what is going on is illegal already, I don't see how MORE gun laws will all of a sudden change things.
 
I don't see how MORE gun laws will all of a sudden change things.

Agreed. They cannot enforce the ones now. So what policies/procedures could be instituted to allow them to actually intelligently enforce the laws without stomping on law abiding citizens?

I would even go so far as to say, assume a clean slate. Lets assume that we could wipe every gun law on the books right now away. Now we have to draw up intelligent laws/regulations to prevent as much of this currently illegal activity as possible (we will never be 100%). I am curious, as gun owners we really have the most to lose in the fight so how would we do it?
 
I'm disgusted by the totality of the responses to this thread, their not supposed to be keeping tabs on our firearms purchases at all! I could care less about this guy committing a crime, thats the price of freedom, a price that many of you obviously aren't good with paying.
No matter, the privilege won't be around much longer anyway....
 
While that ends Murphy's career as a gun runner...

Well...for a year, anyway. (Inmates are commonly released before serving even half the sentence imposed upon them.)

And now he's a convicted felon. There's a very real possibility he'll need to take up crime in order to support himself. McDonalds doesn't cut it.
 
Given what was said about the guy's prior jail time, I wonder how he passed the NICS test?

Anyhow, he knew he was breaking the law by his straw purchases. He then went on and sold the guns to the illegal people. Big question: What law would have prevented those transactions? Seems to me that even if there were a law requiring all legal transactions to only be done by a licensed dealer, that would not have precluded his already-illegal sales.

Forget the Second Amendment in this deal. It's irrelevant. Anybody who knowingly sells firearms to a felon is doing wrong, whether legally or morally.

Gouranga, if we started from scratch on gun control laws, offhand I see two which are reasonable and one "maybe". 1. No guns for court-decision nutzoids. 2. No guns for court-decision felons (I don't want to argue the difference between a violent guy and a little old lady embezzler). 3. The "maybe" is the NICS check by dealers, but without the 4473 stuff. Basically, the NICS shows you're not in categories 1 or 2.
 
The "maybe" is the NICS check by dealers, but without the 4473 stuff. Basically, the NICS shows you're not in categories 1 or 2.

Agreed. I've never understood the purpose of the 4473 post NICS. If you are a prohibited person you're likely to lie on the 4473 anyway, so what good is it.

Reminds me of the old pre 9/11 airline questions "Did you pack your own bags and if so are you a terrorist?"

4473 serves no purpose whatsoever.
 
Given what was said about the guy's prior jail time, I wonder how he passed the NICS test?

Anyhow, he knew he was breaking the law by his straw purchases. He then went on and sold the guns to the illegal people. Big question: What law would have prevented those transactions? Seems to me that even if there were a law requiring all legal transactions to only be done by a licensed dealer, that would not have precluded his already-illegal sales.

Forget the Second Amendment in this deal. It's irrelevant. Anybody who knowingly sells firearms to a felon is doing wrong, whether legally or morally.

Gouranga, if we started from scratch on gun control laws, offhand I see two which are reasonable and one "maybe". 1. No guns for court-decision nutzoids. 2. No guns for court-decision felons (I don't want to argue the difference between a violent guy and a little old lady embezzler). 3. The "maybe" is the NICS check by dealers, but without the 4473 stuff. Basically, the NICS shows you're not in categories 1 or 2.
The crime is secondary to the issue of keeping tabs on whats supposed to be a right! If this was an issue of profiling by the police or TSA directed against certain ethnic/religious groups we'd have all hell breaking loose with ACLU hacks screaming from the mountaintops, instead we've allowed the BATFE to get away with violating the constitution on a daily(if not minute by minute)basis.
Sorry, but it has everything to do with the 2nd....
 
He wasn't a "good guy", he was a criminal. Passing NICS doesn't automatically make someone an angel. He was already breaking serveral laws. More laws wouldn't dissuade him.
 
Stardust...in theory I agree with most of your sentiment. The reality of it is though, there is going to be a balance between the anti's and gun owners. I don't think it should ever be anywhere near the middle, they are way too far off the mark for that.

We can embrace what once was or how it should be but in reality some gun laws are going to be in place. To a limited extent I am good with that. I am a law abiding citizen, I have no problem with the government verifying that before I get a tool that gives me the power to efficiently end another life. Yeah I can kill with my car, hammer, saws, kitchen chair, probably with my cell phone but they were made specifically for that purpose. These restrictions are part of the cost of living in a country where we all get a small say in our governing.

That being said, those same guns that anti-revile are the same tools that made the founding of this country possible. I doubt the Brits would have left due to our harsh language. Or the Nazi's would have just stopped at England, said "my bad", and gone back to Germany without the muzzles of many guns pointed at them.

What I am getting at is, reasonable regulation for the sake of public safety, is an acceptable (IMO) price to pay. If we can accept that, then we can take an active role in guiding it to be intelligent regulation. If I am going to be restricted, I want the loss of that freedom to be for something that actually accomplishes what its stated purpose is. What we got now is a bunch of laws that do not work. They restrict law abiding citizens while doing absolutely nothing to stop the cases such as the gentleman noted in the original post.

NICS is IMO a decent and acceptable restriction. I think any raging lunatic with a legal weapon hurts our cause. Despite millions of sane folks, that one will have a huge impact on legislation. You can state you do not care and that's the price we pay, but the problem is too many other folks in the nation do care and they will push for legislation. I think the gun lobby would do best to endorse effective measures that minimize the impact to law abiding citizens and maybe actually have a real impact on the 'bad guys'. To date, I have never seen a law, beyond maybe NICS which does this. NICS is more like a speed bump for bad guys thanks to nimrods like the 'good guy' in the article above.

Which is why I brought up the question, what, if anything could be done? I agree no matter what we do (even if they completely banned all civilian gun ownership), there will always be criminals with guns.

Also, IMO, the 4473 is for 1 thing and 1 thing only. Rationally, the only reason I would require such a form, with the information on it would be if I wanted to have a means by which to catalog private gun ownership in the US from the federal level. That is the only rational reason I can see why they fill that out AFTER I submit a purchase permit to my sheriff and/or fill out forms for CCW, get fingerprinted, and NICS.
 
Given what was said about the guy's prior jail time, I wonder how he passed the NICS test?

Him passing the NICS test was before he got busted for all the straw buys.... he was convicted, made a felon/prohibited person and thus the arrest and stiff sentence this time.
 
This is definitely a problem that happens. I see fishy things like this all the time. Just the other day I saw someone selling a Hi Point .45 on Craigslist (against the terms of service, apparently) but he wanted either cash or trade, either way he was wanting ~$400 for a Hi Point .45 pistol

I called him to see if I could talk sense into him, he had already sold it for the full amount.

Now you know, and I know, that anyone who would spend more than double what the gun is worth is not just getting ripped off. He's paying a premium for a reason.


But then, what can you do? It's already against the law to buy a gun with the express intent of selling to someone who cannot legally purchase a firearm. And if someone didn't buy it through a third party, would they just break into someone's house or car and steal it instead?
 
Now you know, and I know, that anyone who would spend more than double what the gun is worth is not just getting ripped off. He's paying a premium for a reason.

Never underestimate the ability of some people to simply be stupid :)
 
Sometimes the 'premium' is to keep guns off the grid. The TFH crowd will do this all the while not being prohibited from legally possessing what they're buying. We've got a number of members here who'll pay that premium and they could pass a NICS check for the rest of their life. $400 for a Hi-Point is very odd though.
 
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