Ballistic gelatin test results (07MAR07) - Various .38 Special (4" revolver)

[Brass Fetcher]

Cartridge : Various .38 Specials

Firearm : .357 Magnum revolver with 4.0" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths are corrected depths

Shot 1 : Remington 158gr +P LHP ("FBI load" Part #R38S12) impacted at 932 ft/sec and penetrated to 15.6". Bullet was recovered at 0.636". If you look at the picture, you may notice that the metal that constitutes the expanded portion of the bullet has broken off. This apparently occured as I pulled the bullet out of the bullet catch box, as the lead traveled with the bullet several inches into this box, after leaving the back of the gelatin block together.

Shot 2 : Federal Gold Medal Match 148gr wadcutter, impacted at 721 ft/sec and expanded to 0.422" average diameter. Penetrated to 16.0"+.

Penetration depth given for shots 1&2 are estimated because the physical block used in the test was 16.0" deep and these bullets penetrated through this block and then far into the polyester bullet arresting box. So, in both cases, expect the penetration to be in the neighborhood of 'plenty'. Figure 10-10 in Bullet Penetration was used, with an 'X' value of 18" and calibration depth of 11.25cm for shot 1 and 10.70cm for shot 2.

Shot 3 : Federal 129gr +P Hydra-Shok JHP, impacted at 985 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.0". Average diameter was 0.729".

Shot 4 : Winchester 130gr +P SXT JHP, impacted at 923 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.75". Average diameter was 0.617".

Shot 5 : Speer 125gr +P Gold Dot, impacted at 888 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6". Average diameter was 0.503".

 

[dao]

This is another confirmation : the FBI load , despite age and "low technology bullet", is a winner !

 

[Jim March]

Yup.

The Winnie 130 did very respectably here...I keep saying it's a decent round, but the Gold Dot 135+P probably edges it a bit. The Gold Dot 125 is a disappointment; even if it was going faster, it clearly couldn't have expanded any more. I think it's day is done, with the 135 available.

I'm surprised some by the Remmie 158, in that it's clearly right at the ragged edge in terms of speed. From a 6" tube it seems likely the mushroom would have completely popped off. It's done OK here in a 4" barrel. It would have been interesting to see how Winchester's 158+P lead hollowpoint compares; the Winnie version has a harder lead compound and should hang together better. In a snubbie the Remmie dominates but in the longer barrels, it's probably edged by the Winnie version. Ballistics are close to identical between them.

Everybody please remember that as good as the old-school lead rounds are, they're not for guns of less than 15oz. They'll yank. In the ultralights you need the Gold Dot 135 or Winchester 130 as above.

Finally, thank you VERY much for these great shots. With Ammolabs down you're a desperately needed resource.

 

[SeanSw]

Thank you again for your work, it is nice to see healthier numbers for the .38 special than are usually shown with the short barrel tests. I am still surprised at the penetration shown for the 148gr wadcutter being fired at such low velocities. Much better than a pointy stick, as they say.

BTW, can you tell us which gun was used for your recent tests?

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Ruger Security Six - but all 4" revolvers should give about the same results.

 

[Diamondback]

Thank you for your very informative post and good work. I appreciate it. Your results are as I had expected....most everything works well out of a 4'' barrel.
Some better than others...but all seem acceptable..give or take.
Not until the barrel length drops down to 2" does the bullet technology get challenged.

- regards

 

[DawgFvr]

Wish Corbon DPX was in that mix. Methinks that coppertops are the wave of the future for all barrel lengths in revolver or auto.

 

[RTFM]

Jim March:

Everybody please remember that as good as the old-school lead rounds are, they're not for guns of less than 15oz. They'll yank. In the ultralights you need the Gold Dot 135 or Winchester 130 as above.

Please expand on "they'll yank"
I'm specifically concerned with a S&W 642 .38 +P - 1. 7/8" barrel Stainless Steel cylinder.
Smith has it's empty weight right at 15oz.

Follow up question would be why the 15oz limit? What would happen with a "ultra lite" IE: S&W M&P340 SS Cylinder but a registered weight of 13.3 oz .357/.38 +P revolver.

Thank you.


EDIT for the following question:
In the capacity of a small hide out / pocket pistol. Does any one fell under armed with a .38 +P?
I tire easily of my heavy weight SIG P229 and am seriously considering making the 642 my every day gun.



RTFM

 

[tipoc]

At what distance was the gun from the gelatin when you fired into it?

tipoc

 

[Brass Fetcher]

10' distance from muzzle face to gelatin face.

 

[Donut]

Federal 129gr +P Hydra-Shok JHP, impacted at 985 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.0". Average diameter was 0.729".

Hmm... I wonder how this relates to the 110gr standard pressure Hydra-Shoks at 1050 fps.

Even though my old Police Positive Special is getting "retired" when I pick up my new Glock 19 on Wednesday, I'd still like to see a similar comprehensive test on standard pressure loads.

Too bad I don't have anyplace to shoot at ballistic gelatin, even if was able to get some.

Awesome work, as usual, JE223

 

[gezzer]

Thanks nice test and post!!

 

[Jim March]

I should have explained "yank":

You have five rounds in the snub. You fire the first. The recoil wants to "yank" all the projectiles out of their shells. The shell is held and jerked back hard, the bullet might not come back with it. The lighter the gun, the greater the effect. The heavier the bullet, the greater the effect. The slicker the bullet, the greater the effect.

Lead is slicker than copper or brass jackets.

So: take too light a gun, too much recoil, too heavy a round and too slick a round and when the first round goes off, all remaining four creep out of their shells a bit. Maybe not enough to tie up the gun - yet. Now crank the next off. The remaining three creep out further.

In a 10.5oz or 12.5oz snubbie and the Remington or Winchester 158+Ps, it's almost a certainty that one of the last few rounds will poke out of the cylinder enough to tie the gun up solid. Don't take my word for it: call S&W tech support, they'll tell you the same thing.

Taurus has made 15oz Titanium snubbies for some time, and those don't seem to be doing this - or at least not very often. If fed the Buffalo Bore "super strength" 158+P lead hollowpoint, they might, as that is one STOUT load at least 100ft/lbs energy over the Remmie/Winnie versions.

Anyways. The reason Mas Ayoob gives 15oz as a minimum for the Remmie/Winnie lead 158+Ps is because they work in the Taurus guns of that weight class, at least most of the time.

Below that weight, you MUST drop the bullet weight and go to jacketed. And once that happens, the Gold Dot 135+Ps are THE dominant round, with the Winnie 130+P Supreme as tested above coming in a strong second place.

One more data point: my snubbie is a Charter Arms Undercover, late '70s vintage, mixed steel/aluminum construction, 17oz. It CAN shoot the Winnie and Remmie lead 158+Ps with no problems...I've shot lots of these...which again gives me confidence in Mas' "15oz" rule for these loads.

 

[RTFM]

Jim MarchDon't take my word for it: call S&W tech support, they'll tell you the same thing.

HA! Your THE Jim March not taking you for your word would just be wrong. Your words as good as base ball - hot dogs and apple pie!


Thanks for the explanation Jim I thought it had something to do with the round but need to be sure. Looks like my loved 642 just hits the 15 oz limit.... YAH!

Have a good weekend.


RTFM

 

[Jim March]

Yeah, sure is:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=26804

I recommend shooting at least a box of the Remmie 158+Ps before carrying them. You're right on the border of what works . You might also want to try at least a couple cylinders "deliberately limp wristing" to see if that affects the issue in your particular gun.

See...if you ever have to shoot back while wounded God forbid, you can assume your strength will drop. The revolver's normal advantage is that if the sights are aligned and you can squeeze off a round at all, even if the technique is "ugly", it will fire and not jam. You want to confirm that's still the case, mkay?

Odds are you'll be fine. But check.

Any problems, and the Gold Dot 135+P or the Winnie 130 are both rounds I'd trust my butt to. Be glad you have a fall-back plan .

 

[RTFM]

Thanks (again) Jim.
So all-in-all you have no issues with .38 +p as a personal defence weapon in a 2" (-ish) barrel configuration?

Keeping in consideration your dragging it along in because it's better than a sharp stick and where your out and about to is not know to be a overly hazardous area.
Other pistol - other tools for know bad areas, but for a daily carry in "tame" areas the 2" .38 is good to go in your opinion?

RTFM

 

[saltydog452]

Thanks for sharing your results.

salty.

 

[jad0110]

Excellent post! Confirms what I thought about the 38 FBI Load all along.

Remington 158gr +P LHP ("FBI load" Part #W38S12)

One thing, I assume you used Remington, though I thought the part # was R38S12. Aren't the Winchesters W38S12? Just wanted to clarify that to people who might prefer one brand over the other.

So all-in-all you have no issues with .38 +p as a personal defence weapon in a 2" (-ish) barrel configuration?

RTFM:

I don't have any issues personally. My 642 is my one and only CCW at this time. If I'm in a situation that requires more the 5 rounds of 38+P to get the job done it is either because:

1) I'm missing, which isn't good (regardless of chosen tool)
2) I'm badly outnumbered by armed and dangerous opponents, not good either IMO (even if I were armed with a 17 round wonder nine, I'm still outnumbered)

See...if you ever have to shoot back while wounded God forbid, you can assume your strength will drop. The revolver's normal advantage is that if the sights are aligned and you can squeeze off a round at all, even if the technique is "ugly", it will fire and not jam.

Jim, that's exactly the same reason why I personally prefer a revolver for SD. Thanks for saying it!

I have tested the Remmie R38S12 in my S&W 642, which weighs 15 oz. I'd fire 4 shots, then reload, 4 shots, reload ... about 5 times, leaving the same unfired round in the chamber to measure bullet pull.

At the end of my informal testing, the bullet had pulled perhaps 1 or 2 mms. The gun still functioned properly. Jim makes a good point about testing by limp wristing, I did not do that. And you'd probably want to repeat several times with several individual cartridges to make sure.

The big problem for me was the muzzle flash of the FBI load from a short barrel, so I use the 135 +P Speers. That muzzle flash is not an issue in a 4" barrel, so I load my HD 686+ with Remmies.

Jim, I checked out Buffalo Bore's version of the FBI Load. 158 grains and 1000 fps out of a 2" barrel, WOW!!! Figure around 1100 fps in a 4". I'm thinking of upgrading my 686+ HD ammo!

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Interesting point about the part number - that's my fault - R38S12. I will change it in the original post.

Thank you.

 

[Jim March]

All: yes, I believe the "lowly" 38snubbie when loaded with the very best possible ammo (maybe short of those BuffBore monsters!) is a viable daily carry gun.

I'll go one step further: I believe it should be carried in the same manner every day. And then if you feel the need in particular circumstances, supplement it with another gun carried someplace else.

A lot of problems will develop at close range and when it's really close, the snubbie wheelgun is actually the dominant weapon: it can't go out of battery on muzzle contact and it's difficult to grab away. A very good case can be made that it's the FIRST gun you go to while seeking cover, not a "backup".

----

Jad0110: if you're seeing a little bit of yank while stiff-wrist shooting, that's not good. I must strongly recommend going back and doing a limp-wrist test. You're right at the edge here guys . The Remmie 158 is a wonderful round but it doesn't *severely* eclipse the GD135 or Winnie130 enough to warrant risking reliability issues.

----

Now as to those insane BuffBore monsters.

I have often considered getting a single box and never shooting a single round. I would load one for carry as "last at bat" as the gun's way of saying "you're dry, buddy, think about plan B here" as it tries to rip your arm off. Coming back down from recoil if it's the "cleanup batter" is a non-issue...and God help whatever gets hit with it. Only thing is: will four Gold Dot 135s cause that last puppy to yank a bit? I have no idea in a 15oz gun. You'd have to test.

But this concept of loading a monster last up is not without merit in general.

----

One last concern: if there's a millimeter or two of "yanking" but not enough to tie the gun up, will that reduce pressure and hence velocity in the latter rounds? Only a chrony would confirm but you wouldn't want to find out after the fact that you're tossing out 50fps+ on rounds 4 and 5 and it's enough to hose expansion...at that point you'd have been better off with GD135s or the Winnie 130.

 

[wcwhitey]

Great tests JE, Thank You for your time and effort. Thanks to Jim March for taking the time to explain the finer points as well. The tests do show that with reliable expansion and plenty of penetration the 4" .38 is a very viable for defense. I have always been a big fan of the 158 SWCHP (carried the Federal NYCLADS for many years). I now carry the Gold Dot short barrel that was designed for my department. I don't have the option to carry any other round but it does make me feel secure knowing it is at the top of list for carry rounds in by 640.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

Nice! I'm not sure if people realize how expensive gelatin is as well.

The shallow penetration of the Winchester SXT is disappointing