Ballistic gelatin test results : 7 1/2 birdshot (UPDATE: #8 shot, Post 75, 7/22/09)

[Mossberg535]

Good post Scout.
when the gent basically was forcing his way into my home I had my 357 snubby readily available and probably could have justified shooting him because I had already ejected him once and he came charging back in.
I dont think a LEO or judge alive would have not accepted that I honestly would believe that my life was in danger...at the time there was a good reason to believe that this guy was going to do whatever he needed to to get in and hurt someone.

But it was easy enough to assess that he was not carrying a weapon and that a good *** kicking might be called for instead.
So I dealt with him physically, put him outside my home and called the police.

If my wife had been in the home at the time, things may have been handled differently because her safety would have been at the forefront of my mind, but in this particular instance, I didnt feel the need to play Rambo and start firing at the first possible opportunity.

I think part of HD is being ABLE to discern a THREAT and when to take someones life, and when lesser measures are called for and a good whipping might be in order.

 

[rantingredneck]

I didn't advocate to "shoot first ask questions later". I said warning shots aren't a terribly good idea. There is a difference. Think about it for a bit. It'll come to you.

Edited to add: If you want to continue this discussion, start a new thread about warning shots and I'll gladly participate. As it is this thread is more about number 7.5 birdshot's effectiveness.

I apologize for the thread veer..........

 

[itgoesboom]

I didn't advocate to "shoot first ask questions later". I said warning shots aren't a terribly good idea. There is a difference. Think about it for a bit. It'll come to you.

Bingo.

Either you are in a situation where you are legally allowed to use lethal force, or you aren't. There is not really a middle ground there.

Not to mention, warning shots are bad tactics, since it leaves you down one in regards to ammo.

 

[oneounceload]

Not to mention, warning shots are bad tactics, since it leaves you down one in regards to ammo.

and if you're inside, it leaves a hole in your ceiling that you have to patch..

 

[itgoesboom]

and if you're inside, it leaves a hole in your ceiling that you have to patch..

Probably not, because anyone who actually believes in using warning shots, also probably believes in using frangible ammo.

 

[Scoutsout2645]

And we're back to how many walls birdshot will penetrate vs. buckshot... I love when a thread veer goes full circle!

 

[Zip7]

Has anyone tested rock salt? I know Granny Clampett swore by it.

 

[mtngunr]

..how far we talking? i'd take a .22 in the rear for the right price.

hahahahhahhhahhahaa!!!....help, I can't stop!!!.....ok, how does $1/ft grab you? The easiest $100 you'd ever regret....and you'd better hope I'm a REALLY good shot!

Seriously, even Marshall's tests of mousegun loads, penetration, and shooting results showed 50% one-shot-stops with .22LR, .25ACP, and .22Short with basically 10" penetration with any of them....the one-shot-stops being, of course, spine hits from THE FRONT.

 

[mtngunr]

also probably believes in using frangible ammo.

That fairly describes shotshells....of whatever shot size.

 

[itgoesboom]

1. There is a big difference between frangible ammo that is designed to not penetrate, and shot, especially large shot like 00 Buck that is very good at penetrating.

2. Any use of Marshall and Sanow's "statistics" immediately raises the red flag. As mentioned earlier, including a shot that stops a person because of a psychological reaction and calling it a "one shot stop" but not including a shoot that requires 10 shots as a "one shot failure" invalidates their data.

Doesn't mean I want to be hit by a .22lr, but I don't want to be hit by a .177 pellet either.

 

[Feanaro]

and no naysayer has ever, and I mean EVER, volunteered to stand out there while I plugged them with my dinky (fill-in-the-blank, be it .22, .25, .32, .410, birdshot, slingshot, pellet rifle) ineffective little toy

I won't let you throw rocks at me either, does that make them effective self defense weapons?

 

[Scoutsout2645]

If that's all you have at hand, then yes. If all you have is a .22LR, then use it and make sure you can put your rounds into his brain housing group fast and accurate. BUT, if you have time to plan ahead (and obviously that's why we're all throwing our opinions around here) get the right tools for the job. You COULD run a marathon in work boots, or race a 1/4 mile with a Yugo, but why would you choose to do so?

 

[Zip7]

I don't want to be hit by a .177 pellet either

After seeing what it does to a squirrel, I don't want to be hit with a Hornady V-Max out of a 17HMR either

 

[mavracer]

I won't let you throw rocks at me either, does that make them effective self defense weapons?

yes it does

 

[moooose102]

i wouldnt want to be shot with ANY shotgun load. period!

 

[Geronimo45]

I won't let you throw rocks at me either, does that make them effective self defense weapons?

Absolutely. Effective != lethal. You don't want to be pelted with rocks, so you could be convinced to alter any innate desires you have to club me like a baby seal by me pelting you with said rocks.

 

[Feanaro]

You don't want to be pelted with rocks, so you could be convinced to alter any innate desires you have to club me like a baby seal by me pelting you with said rocks.

You've extrapolated something not stated. In the context of the quote, I said I wasn't going to volunteer to be hit with a rock. Because that is stupid. I'm not going to jump in front of a bicycle or a Mack truck, that doesn't mean the bicycle is a good choice for vehicular homocide. I have been hit by rocks and it didn't do the pelter a darn bit 'o good.

If that's all you have at hand, then yes.

A lack of alternatives doesn't make something good or effective... it's just what's left.

 

[max199]

Response to 7,5 Birdshot Test

Thanks for this cool and precise test, JE223. Well done!
I must say that I have been searching for precisely this test for a while on the net.
I guess the bottom line is:
1.- shotguns are a very good choice for hd.
2.- you should use the max. pellet size that is legal, and that will not penetrate the walls of your home, but
3.- keep in mind that you still want a reasonable shot pattern - there should be IMO at least six pellets, so the max size is somewhere between #000 and #0000 (9,1-9,4mm)
4.- ! the amount of training on your part is much, MUCH more important than pellet size! i have put more than 12.000 rounds through my shotgun, and i assure you that i can stop a *hostile without a ballistic helmet* even with #7 or #9 shot by hitting the "sweet spot"... the pellets will enter his frontal lobe through the eye sockets, which should always be a one-shot stop. and it works even with bogeys wearing bodyarmour.

 

[woodfiend]

Nice post! I have always wondered what getting shot with bird shot would be like. I say any hole is one that shouldn't be there.

 

[max199]

" i'd take a .22 in the rear for the right price"



OK! I am offering you 1000$ for a single headshot from behind with a full metal jacket with high velocity, from 3 yards distance.
Is " aide to suicide" punishible in the US? Ever heard of the darvin awards?
-
Seriously, i don't want to offend you... but some professional killers, like those of mossad, always use .22lr pistols. remember that, if the number of rounds through a gun until gunsmithing is low, like 100, you can crank up the pressure. Those pro-killers always shoot at the head, and believe me, most of their victims are dead at the scene.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Max199,

Thanks for this cool and precise test, JE223. Well done!
I must say that I have been searching for precisely this test for a while on the net.
I guess the bottom line is:
1.- shotguns are a very good choice for hd.
2.- you should use the max. pellet size that is legal, and that will not penetrate the walls of your home, but
3.- keep in mind that you still want a reasonable shot pattern - there should be IMO at least six pellets, so the max size is somewhere between #000 and #0000 (9,1-9,4mm)
4.- ! the amount of training on your part is much, MUCH more important than pellet size! i have put more than 12.000 rounds through my shotgun, and i assure you that i can stop a *hostile without a ballistic helmet* even with #7 or #9 shot by hitting the "sweet spot"... the pellets will enter his frontal lobe through the eye sockets, which should always be a one-shot stop. and it works even with bogeys wearing bodyarmour.

I agree very strongly with point #1. #2, appears to be a very difficult balance to reach. I am planning on more detailed wall penetration tests with shotguns in the near future, but what I have seen so far is that wall board is only a small deterrent to pellet penetration. Take a look at the #1 buckshot tests on my old website for some of where I am coming from on this issue : http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge.html . Totally agree on #4 as well.

Best regards,
John

 

[TAB]

I find it very intresting that the block lifted up to a 45 degree angle. To lift a 65 lb of anything like that takes alot of work( engineering context)

 

[max199]

@ all,
- i urge you to read JE223 old site at http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge.html and to compare the results to the picture starting this thread!!! This is extremely interesting.

- @ JE223 : maybe You should compile this info into a book on terminal ballistics.... this is great stuff!

- That site also shows the only terminal ballistic test of shotgun flechettes that i am aware of. Highly interesting!

 

[oneounceload]

If all I had at the moment of attack was 7-1/2's, then I'm going for the head or the knee

you take the patella out and the guy isn't chasing after you...

hit the face and have a few penetrate the eyes and into the brain........

well, it wouldn't be very pretty

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Just to follow up on the original test, a 3-shot series with #8 birdshot can be found here (PDF reader required) :

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge birdshot.pdf