Balloon head .38-40

[Jim Watson]

You see a lot of old velocity readings at 78 feet. The electro-mechanical chronographs needed a lot of dwell time to get precise readings. So the start screen was at one yard, the stop screen at 51 yards, 150 feet apart, so the velocity was listed as for the midpoint.

The ballistic pendulum needed no electrical power.

 

[hawg]

Yep, me and Billy hate the cell phone. I don't have one either. However, I have fallen prey to the internet. Dang.

I don't like them but I do have one. I can talk, text and take pics but not much else. My wife was the phone tech. Anything that required a phone she handled and now I'm having to learn how. I hate it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I don't like them but I do have one. I can talk, text and take pics but not much else. My wife was the phone tech. Anything that required a phone she handled and now I'm having to learn how. I hate it.

Yes. You, me, and Billy. We HATES them!!! Actually, I do "own" one, don't tell anyone, and take it with me when away from home, but otherwise seldom use it. Usually many weeks between even turning it on. I do use it to contact the wife when I'm done with a hike on the state land and ready to be picked up. She is also a techno-geek. I certainly will not be seen using it in public. I hates seeing people walking around, zoned out on their phones, oblivious to life going on around them. Phone addiction...we hates it! But, the kids at the high school taught me how to text when I was still there. Anything like that and I could grab a random kid to teach me. !!! How sad is that? One time I did have a new battery go bad and die on one of the motorcycles, and it kind of came in handy to get help to trailer it home. Otherwise, it would have been a very long push. But still, we hates it anyway.

 

[Slamfire]

I think Remington made the 40 grain, 45 Colt load for quite a while.

It is interesting what they did use for measuring velocity back then. For sure not portable, one I know of was a very large "contraption" consisting of a very large drum or cylinder with graph paper on it. They would spin it at a specific RPM, shoot at it, and by measuring the distance between the holes in each side it could be determined mathematically what the velocity was. !!! Very clever. However, the common 1" pine board method of penetration testing wasn't "bad". Gave one a pretty good comparison between calibers/cartridges. Not perfect, and didn't tell all, but velocity in it's self does not always tell all either.

I have seen images of ballistic pendulums. Given the conservation of momentum, Momentum = mass X velocity, you can back into velocity by knowing how much a bullet moves an object of known weight. Probably was not very accurate. Phillip Sharpe, in his Complete Book of Handloading, circa 1939, presents a formula to calculate the velocity of a super sconic bullet by the time it takes an observer to hear the sound of the bullet hitting the target! Be a half a second off and the velocity is going to be off!

This chronograph dates to 1874, a bit big. I really doubt Colt or S&W used one, but, they could have. Boulengé chronograph

That page references a 1937 Navy Manual. Take a look at Section 1518 to see what the Navy was doing to determine artillery shell velocities. https://eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-XV-PAGE-1.html

 

[Jim Watson]

Phillip Sharpe, in his Complete Book of Handloading, circa 1939, presents a formula to calculate the velocity of a super sconic bullet by the time it takes an observer to hear the sound of the bullet hitting the target!

I have the book and am just amazed at some of the stuff being done in the first half of the 20th. Special chapter on calculations with the slide rule.

There was a Gun Digest article, The Trajectory Chronograph. The idea being that given the ballistic coefficient and the POI at various ranges, you could back into the velocity.

Another Gun Digest feature article was on the Counter Chronograph with an oscillator and readout in Nixie tubes.

I had an early Oehler Skyscreen setup. The pickups five feet apart, the controller with a Yes-No readout on a click stopped dial, result in octal milliseconds, translated to velocity with provided tables. I still have the chronograph, the rail with detectors may be around somewhere, the tables likely lost in The Incident.

 

[StrawHat]

I think Remington made the 40 grain, 45 Colt load for quite a while.
…

Elmer Keith wrote that if he were restricted to factory ammunition, he would be very happy to use the Remington blackpowder 45 long Colt ammunition. After his death, one of his SAA’s was found loaded with that same ammunition.

Kevin

 

[CraigC]

You have SR 80 powder? Do be careful, it was hazardous to Elmer's guns. Phil Sharpe shows velocity but not pressure.

Full can! I was going to use them in a .44Mag instead of a .44Spl.

 

[OS/N]

Balloon cases would likely be rotten. They also hold more powder than the new type but were weaker.

If you have some still loaded from the 19th century I might might sell them to a collector and buy some new brass, primers, and powder with the money.

 

[buttrap]

They where loaded with mercuric primers and make the brass brittle as snake skin after being fired.

 

[Jim Watson]

Slamfire's may have been.
There were "corrosive" (chlorate) primers and mercuric primers. Some were both.
A corrosive primer lays down potassium chloride which collects moisture and rusts steel but does not affect the brass. A mercuric primer lays down metallic mercury which amalgamates the brass and weakens the cases, but does not affect steel. There was some early noncorrosive ammo that used straight mercuric primers. The manufacturers did not encourage reloading anyhow so destruction of the cases was a plus for them.

 

[rodwha]

OK.

Forty grains of FFg under a 1-20 cast 255g RNFP, in the NOS balloon-head cases, chonographed 914 fps from the 7-1/2",1880s era Cavalry Colt. From a 5-1/2" "Artillery Model" whose frame dated from 1880s also, but its other parts dated from 1874 to 1890 chronographed at 894 fps. Those two 1st Gen SAAs were military guns. My 4-3/4" Colt left the factory as a 1887 civilian gun that shipped to a big dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio (cant' remember the name). It chronographed the same ammunition at 864 fps. These were all 5 shot strings of fire.

Dave

What brand of powder were you using? And is the 40 grns by weight or volume?

 

[rodwha]

All of this talk about original performance of the .45 LC and then the military round they eventually settled upon has intrigued me. I own a ROA and had been told it wasn’t humane to hunt with, that it was grossly anemic even with a conical. But I researched and asked a lot of questions and have found they were likely not familiar with energetic powders and likely also use 2F.

Kaido had Lee modify their 255 grn Colt bullet to work in the ROA and sent them to Duelist to test. He tested standard 3F Goex to reduced charges and light compression of 3F Triple 7. With what was an equivalent to a 30 grn charge of Goex was a 25 grn charge with T7 and it produced an average of 920 fps with the 7.5” barrel. T7 doesn’t need to be reduced, nor does it require light compression in a cap n ball or muzzleloader, only when loading cartridges. So these can be potentially more potent.

I had been testing my ROA and NMA for their most accurate load, but using an old rifle measure graduated in 10 grns which only let me eyeball 5 grn variations. Now I have a better one that is in 5s making it easy to eyeball 2.5 grn increments, it also drops the weight measured when using 3F Olde E. At that time my ROA used 38 grns and my NMA 33 grns, and I intend to create a universal bullet that works between them, there’s not much difference in the unused volume. It had looked to weigh close to 235 grns. From various sources it appears as though the NMA is easily within .the 45 ACP realm, some claiming even low end +P, and the ROA more like a +P+.

With the stated 2F 40 grn load behind a 255 grn bullet originally achieving 920 fps tells me they must have also been using something like Hazards Pistol Powder, equivalent to modern Swiss and Olde E. Anyone know much about that? And with the grossly reduced military round was it also using this type of powder or did they downgrade that too? I assume it was the 28 grn load with a 230 grn bullet that Colt replicated with the .45 ACP?

 

[hawg]

What brand of powder were you using? And is the 40 grns by weight or volume?

I believe 2F is the same whether by weight or volume. There will be a minor difference between the different grades but not enough to matter. I doubt brand matters but I know of no tests to bear that out.

 

[rodwha]

Not necessarily true. There’s a huge weight difference between brands. On a now defunct forum, The Remington 1858 Forum, a fellow had weighed all of his 30 grn charges when testing various powders. Grafs weighed 28.2 grns, Swiss weighed 24.4, and Olde Eynsford weighed 23.8 grns, each 3F powder. 2F would weigh even less if thrown from that same 30 grn measure. It may well hold a weighed 40 grns of 2F, which would mean it’d hold a few more if filled with 3F. Intriguing to me.

 

[hawg]

Not necessarily true. There’s a huge weight difference between brands. On a now defunct forum, The Remington 1858 Forum, a fellow had weighed all of his 30 grn charges when testing various powders. Grafs weighed 28.2 grns, Swiss weighed 24.4, and Olde Eynsford weighed 23.8 grns, each 3F powder. 2F would weigh even less if thrown from that same 30 grn measure. It may well hold a weighed 40 grns of 2F, which would mean it’d hold a few more if filled with 3F. Intriguing to me.

I was an admin on the 58 forum. I guess old age is catching up to me. I don't remember that test.

 

[rodwha]

I’m lucky I had the wherewithal to take screen shots. Clipped his name apparently, but maybe you recognize it. This post was many years back.

 

[hawg]

I don't recognize the name. Maybe Captain*kirk does. He was head honcho.

​

 

[woodnbow]

Dude was a legend though.

 

[hawg]

How long ago?

 

[Dave T]

What brand of powder were you using? And is the 40 grns by weight or volume?

When I did that chronograph test in the early 1990s the only powder I could get was GOEX. The charges were 40g by weight.

Dave

 

[rodwha]

When I did that chronograph test in the early 1990s the only powder I could get was GOEX. The charges were 40g by weight.

Dave

Wow! That’s quite impressive. Until Goex began making Olde Eynsford to compete with Swiss I don’t think they’ve ever made an energetic powder.

Now I’m curious who’s dropped weighed charges of Swiss or Olde Eynsford (there’s a French brand, and something newer out of South Africa but they aren’t common here if you can even get them) and how they performed.

It also sounds as though the government changed from Hazard’s Pistol Powder.

 

[OS/N]

Swiss runs close to volumn. Next time I go by the loading shack I'll measure a 100 grain charge and see what it weighs.

As far as I know Schuetzen is still availible from Gremany. It's usually priced about the same as Swiss so I just get Swiss.

I seem to remember seeing somewhere that 1F weighs same as volumn but its be awhile and I can't remember for sure. The ingredients mixed differs from brand to brand a little but the volumn measure is supposed to be about the same for same sized powder across the board. To be honest I never saw much difference in performance between 3f, 2f, and 1-1/2f as long as you put in an equal charge equivelent.