Bargain Shooter or Grail Gun?

[Tallball]

A couple of years ago I was able to visit a cousin who lives out of state. We are about the same age and get along well, but have almost always lived very far away from each other, and only spend time together once a decade or so.

It turns out that, like me, he has become something of a firearms enthusiast. He showed me his collection. He had some AR's that he had built (he is ex-military) with the very finest parts and with painstaking detail. He also had two 9mm pistols. I think they were both HK's, or maybe one was an HK and one was something similar. Anyway, he had researched and held a million pistols before he bought them. They had the exact features he wanted and fit his hands perfectly. He paid around $1,000 apiece for them. I congratulated him sincerely. They were very nice guns and he obviously liked them tremendously. I didn't say much about my guns, just that I had a bunch.

It turns out that we are sort of opposites in the gun-buying category. I also research and put some time into it, but what I enjoy more than anything else is getting a handgun that is a very good shooter, but that I paid very little for. I love to find a great deal. Many times I have stalked a particular handgun on Gunbroker for months before I found one for the price I was willing to pay.

I probably have 20 handguns that I paid less than $300 apiece for, and all of them are good reliable shooters. Some are military surplus, some have blemished finishes, some are clones, some were just amazing deals.

Some examples: $135 Single Six that needed cold blue and a $20 part; $150 S & W pre-model 10 that didn't have much finish left; $125 Hand Ejector with rough finish and no one wants 32 long anymore; $200 FEG High Power clone that someone needed cash for right that second (to make another deal); $250 OTD Star Super B that shoots like a dream; $260 CZ83 that that is smooth as butter... and so on and so forth. They are all good shooters and reliable.

The thing I am getting at is that neither of us, me or my cousin, is "right". We both have guns we really like. He really enjoyed figuring out what the perfect pistols were and saving up the money for them. I really enjoyed scrounging up terrific bargains. We both truly enjoy our trips to the shooting range. We are both well-armed for SD. We are both happy with what we have.

I think sometimes there are disagreements on THR due to people falling into these different categories and not understanding each other, or believing that there is a definite "right" or "wrong" way of approaching things. Some people think that if you would depend on something like a Star or an FEG for SD, you are completely out of your mind. Some people think that if you would pay more than $400 for any firearm whatsoever, you are completely out of your mind. There is no right or wrong to this. We are just enjoying the same hobby in different ways.

So let's just be amused by each other's quirks!

 

[tuj]

Interesting post. I scored two Pardini's (an SP and a GT45) from an estate sale in a package deal for about 50% MSRP. But I've also put together a top-notch-parts AR, and paid more than a grand for a very accurate 1911.

But I've also got an 5906 that was a used police gun.

 

[Tallball]

Please don't think I am disrespecting my cousin because I don't remember his pistols exactly. The wives and kids had left us alone together all day and he had a bunch of really good beer (he served in Germany before he was sent to Iraq).

 

[420Stainless]

As you have stated, nothing wrong with either approach. It's your money and your life after all. I fall into the preference of few nice and desired guns over plenty of lower priced ones. While I'm not wealthy enough to possess truly fine firearms, the ones I carry and would depend upon happen to be among my most expensive as well. But they all serve the same purpose of sending a bullet down range and the cartridge loaded into the Star will have the same impact as the identical cartridge loaded into the Colt. I just happen to like the Colt better.

 

[Traffer]

A couple of years ago I was able to visit a cousin who lives out of state. We are about the same age and get along well, but have almost always lived very far away from each other, and only spend time together once a decade or so.

It turns out that, like me, he has become something of a firearms enthusiast. He showed me his collection. He had some AR's that he had built (he is ex-military) with the very finest parts and with painstaking detail. He also had two 9mm pistols. I think they were both HK's, or maybe one was an HK and one was something similar. Anyway, he had researched and held a million pistols before he bought them. They had the exact features he wanted and fit his hands perfectly. He paid around $1,000 apiece for them. I congratulated him sincerely. They were very nice guns and he obviously liked them tremendously. I didn't say much about my guns, just that I had a bunch.

It turns out that we are sort of opposites in the gun-buying category. I also research and put some time into it, but what I enjoy more than anything else is getting a handgun that is a very good shooter, but that I paid very little for. I love to find a great deal. Many times I have stalked a particular handgun on Gunbroker for months before I found one for the price I was willing to pay.

I probably have 20 handguns that I paid less than $300 apiece for, and all of them are good reliable shooters. Some are military surplus, some have blemished finishes, some are clones, some were just amazing deals.

Some examples: $135 Single Six that needed cold blue and a $20 part; $150 S & W pre-model 10 that didn't have much finish left; $125 Hand Ejector with rough finish and no one wants 32 long anymore; $200 FEG High Power clone that someone needed cash for right that second (to make another deal); $250 OTD Star Super B that shoots like a dream; $260 CZ83 that that is smooth as butter... and so on and so forth. They are all good shooters and reliable.

The thing I am getting at is that neither of us, me or my cousin, is "right". We both have guns we really like. He really enjoyed figuring out what the perfect pistols were and saving up the money for them. I really enjoyed scrounging up terrific bargains. We both truly enjoy our trips to the shooting range. We are both well-armed for SD. We are both happy with what we have.

I think sometimes there are disagreements on THR due to people falling into these different categories and not understanding each other, or believing that there is a definite "right" or "wrong" way of approaching things. Some people think that if you would depend on something like a Star or an FEG for SD, you are completely out of your mind. Some people think that if you would pay more than $400 for any firearm whatsoever, you are completely out of your mind. There is no right or wrong to this. We are just enjoying the same hobby in different ways.

So let's just be amused by each other's quirks!

I just bought a nearly unfired Norinco 213 9MM that was dirty. $100. If you ever want to sell those guns, I will give you a 20% profit on each one. That's fair, isn't it?

 

[1911 guy]

I'm a little of both. Sometimes it's "I need a gun to fill this role". When something comes up for a good price that will do the job, I get it. The opposite end is custom built handguns. I want specific things for specific reasons and nothing else will do. I don't have many of those, they tend to get expensive.

Just as examples, I wanted a short shotgun for the house. I got a "free" Savage 320 Security when I bought a case of Federal 2 3/4" 00 buck. It's no silk purse, but I've wrung it out and it fills the need.

Then there's a custom built 1911 on a Springfield G.I. frame and slide. $2,000 gun, but I like it a lot and the trigger is superb. I paid more money to a gunsmith to get exactly what I wanted, not an off-the-shelf model from any manufacturer.

I think the only problem comes when we don't look at things realistically. I would never claim that my Savage shotgun is the equal of a 870 worked over by Wilson's Scattergun Technologies. That would be comparing a VW Beetle to a Corvette.

 

[Tallball]

Traffer, I have one too! I traded a Nagant with a horrible trigger and a French piece of junk for a Norinco 213 Tokerov 9mm that shoots sweeter than candy. Sorry that I can't accommodate you on resales. I have too many that are worth 50-100% more than I paid for them, and most of them are worth more than that to me.

1911 Guy, I lucked out too. My buddy got an all but unused Remington 870 for doing $150 worth of work. Then he permanently injured his shoulder and wouldn't let me give him more than $150 for it. That is my HD shotgun. You don't have to pay a fortune to get an effective HD weapon.

And more power to you on the 1911. I am glad you got just what you wanted.

 

[Ed Ames]

I somewhat straddle the line. I've locked sights on a few "Grail" type items that took me months or years to acquire, not so much due to price but because they were just hard to find. I'm still looking for a few. I'm also a proud bargain hunter and some of my favourite guns sell brand new for just a few hundred dollars.

I think the biggest problem comes when people assume that their preferences (especially when it is really just what they are used to) are universal or in some sense "the right way". One of the biggest examples of this for me is the trigger/safety configuration issue. SAO+half cock, SAO+manual safety, long travel-SAO with no manual safety, DAO with no manual safety, DAO with manual safety, safety on the slide, safety on the frame, decocker, long reset, short reset, heavy pull, etc., all are preferences. They are things you can get used to with training. Same with magazine releases, grip angles, push or pull cylinder latches, and so on. When you start saying that a gun is bad because you don't like the configuration you have fallen from the path to enlightenment.

But that's just me.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Interesting observation and a good point to bare in mind. I agree completely.

I tend to be like your cousin. I'd rather fewer guns that are perfect for me rather than more guns that I got a good deal on.

but the bottom line is that regardless of condition or price point, I want s good shooter. If it's a beater or a looker, it doesn't matter that much to me.

 

[C0untZer0]

Depending on budget, I personally don't think someone should be rigidly adhere to buying only premium guns or only bargains.

When I was looking for a truck gun, I mainly wanted something reliable, cheap, and not something that I would worry too much about if it got a spot of rust on it from being in the car and undergoing temperature and humidity changes. Since I wasn't going to be carrying it I wanted it to be full size and hold at least 17 rounds, weight was not a factor. And given those other criteria I wanted the cheapest pisatol I could get

I ended up buying a SAR B6P for about $242.00

If I was adamant about only buying the best of the best of the best, I would have ended up with a $600 pistol for my truck gun, and fretted over it all the time.

 

[larryh1108]

I'm with the OP. Over the years I liked to find inexpensive but reliable guns. $250-$350 was a good price range for me. I bought them, fixed them, shot them, cleaned them up and when I was bored with it I sold it (usually at a small profit) and bought another gun that just talked to me. I ended up with 25-30 clean, reliable and (to me) fun guns. As I aged, I wanted some nicer (read: more expensive and refined) guns. So, I sold 2 or 3 of my herd and bought what I wanted. They are not collector's items or safe queens but they are nice guns. So, instead of 25-30 nice guns, I have 18 nicer guns.

This thread falls along the lines of cars. Some people have to drive the luxury cars and some just want basic transportation. Some buy a Ford Focus or Chevy Aveo, some a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla and some a BMW, Lexus or Mercedes. All of these cars get you from point A to point B just fine. It's up to the buyer how he wants to get there, nobody else.

The problems begin when the luxury buyers put down the economy buyers for buying junk or undesirable cars. Why does it matter to them? Ask them because it makes no sense to me. It must be because they feel they have to put others down to justify their own needs when the truth is they drive/buy what they want because they can and want to. It's that simple.

 

[meatballs]

I think it's wonderful that there are so many different choices for us gun, and shooting sports enthusiasts. There are so many different ways we can establish, and approach our hobbies when it comes to firearms. For me, it's shooting Glocks, Springfield XDs, and lever action rifles. Buy what you like, and enjoy. Happy shootin!

 

[JTQ]

I would align more with your cousin. I have an out of production gun, that I bought long enough ago when it was in production, but I'd never intentionally buy an out of production gun since finding parts is very difficult, if not sometimes impossible. I want a gun that works, and if it doesn't, I want to be able to have it fixed.

I'd much rather have one or two "nice" guns than half a dozen "beaters". I'm not saying I have to have a Wilson Combat 1911, but a good production gun is what I'd prefer. For instance, not that they're out of production guns, but if I had $1,000 to spend for a Browning Hi-Power, I'd rather have one new MKIII rather than two military surplus Hi-Power's from the 1950's.

 

[bobinoregon]

I just paid $300 sight unseen for a 29 Smith, turns out it had been in a leather holster forever that messed up the blueing on the cylinder. I primarily buy shooters but in this case I'll pay to have it fixed because of what it is and what it should be. It's wonderful to shoot, but I want it to look right too.

 

[JTQ]

Let me expand a little on my earlier point.

Fifteen years ago, if I was spending $1,000 on an aluminum framed DA/SA pistol in .45ACP, I'd probably rather have two Ruger P90's than one SIG P220. I think both are fine guns, but I see the value in the Ruger P90. However, if I were buying the guns today, I'd much rather have the P220 rather a pair of P90's. If you break something on the Ruger and send it back to Ruger, chances are they're not fixing your P90. If you're lucky they're sending you an SR45 as a replacement.

The point I'm making is I don't consider myself a gun snob, I just want a gun that works, or can be fixed without too much trouble or expense. For that reason I avoid out of production guns.

 

[Ed Ames]

I think the out of production issue is perhaps different than the core issue the OP is discussing.

As I understand the OP, the difference is more between whether you feel happier buying a used GenIII Glock 21 that has an owner installed storm lake threaded barrel, some wear on the slide, and a $450 price tag, a $150 NAA mini revolver, a $150 SW9VE that someone who needs rent money hasn't shot in 5 years, and a new $350 Ruger American, or buying a new FNX .45 Tactical with a $1100 price tag.

 

[JTQ]

I think the out of production issue is perhaps different than the core issue the OP is discussing.

There are a lot of out of production guns listed in the OP's example.

Some examples: $135 Single Six that needed cold blue and a $20 part; $150 S & W pre-model 10 that didn't have much finish left; $125 Hand Ejector with rough finish and no one wants 32 long anymore; $200 FEG High Power clone that someone needed cash for right that second (to make another deal); $250 OTD Star Super B that shoots like a dream; $260 CZ83 that that is smooth as butter... and so on and so forth. They are all good shooters and reliable.

Would I rather have four Beretta 92's than one Ed Brown 1911 (I'm a 1911 guy by the way)? Probably. Would I rather have four Star Super B's, than one SIG P226? No.

 

[Ed Ames]

Would I rather have four Beretta 92's than one Ed Brown 1911 (I'm a 1911 guy by the way)? Probably. Would I rather have four Star Super B's, than one SIG P226? No.

Some folks, and I've known more than a few of these, would rather have nothing than any of the guns you mentioned. They want a Stan Chen 1911 built exactly to their specifications, right down to the fossil mammoth ivory grips, and if they can't have that they aren't going to have anything.

That's the attitude I assumed the OP was referring to with the Grail comment. I'll have my grail or nothing.

 

[silicosys4]

I am addicted to paying below market value for guns. I haven't really settled on any particular niche, so a great amount of my collecting impetus consists of "Don't have one of those yet"
I don't have many collectible firearms, and the ones that are were purchased from people who didn't know what they had, or didn't care.
but I do have character oozing out of my safe, and enough variety that I never get bored at the range. I have only two guns that will probably never be fired again, other than that I buy them to shoot them, and worn guns with good insides are cheaper and less stressful to shoot, clean, and transport than pristine guns.
Some of the things I've done to/with a few of my guns...you wouldn't want me doing with anything other than a beater/shooter, lol

 

[WestKentucky]

I fall into the "all of the above" category. I love shooter grade guns, and I especially like guns that are cheap and reliable, or guns that shoot like a guided missile. I have them all, in all 3 categories and subcategories of each...in rifles I'm pretty well an accuracy nut, but I have a couple cheapos tucked away as well. I don't necessarily need 3 marlin model 60 rifles, but when you buy one for a 50 dollar bill because it's spray painted and ugly who cares. That sits next to the remington 700 .270 win which is my first purchased rifle, and an heirloom marlin 336. In handguns I run from my 15" 357 buntline down to a j frame 22. My buntline was 300 bucks, my contender I traded into at about 300 bucks , my pt99afs I bought for 400 but then sold the 22 conversion that I got with it bringing it down to 300 bucks. These 3 are all incredible shooters. My 22 j frame is an arminius pot metal junker that shoots really well 7 out of 8 shots. I think one chamber is slightly off but it doesn't shave lead. I paid 59 bucks for that one. I have a few others that came from junk boxes, and I have my grandma's rg32swl snub, in the lot of probably 10 cheapos I might have 400 bucks, but each one has its place. Sitting in the "junkyard section" is a safety hammerless 4th model s&w 38sw revolver that should bring a premium if I can ever find a cylinder stop. It was without a doubt made on THE day they started making 4th models and it is in incredible shape aside from the broken internal piece. Moving into shotguns I own a couple old pumps, an 1148 and the newest is an H&R youth model aka 20ga defense gun I bought for 179. I like the cheapos. I like the accurate guns. I certainly like odd guns. But then comes the one with the yearly safe deposit box payments and estimated values every few years for insurance purposes. I like those too (wife doesn't need to know about those til I'm dead, it's in my paperwork accompanying my will). She has an idea and she knows to not question a direct bill each April, and isn't questioning me when I say that when we build our next long-term home it will have a true vault in it.

 

[WestKentucky]

There are a lot of out of production guns listed in the OP's example.


Would I rather have four Beretta 92's than one Ed Brown 1911 (I'm a 1911 guy by the way)? Probably. Would I rather have four Star Super B's, than one SIG P226? No.

Your almost there...1 ed brown 1911 or 4 beretta m9, or even better 8 taurus pt92

 

[Twiki357]

I guess that I’m somewhere in-between, but closer to the OP. I have a few premium handguns, but my “Thing” is older Smith & Wesson revolvers and most are the less pricy shooter category ones. I just have a problem passing up a good buy even if it’s a duplicate of one I already have and need it like a hole in the head.

 

[Dr.Rob]

FEG hi-powers are awesome pistols. I have one that has been run hard in competition and is my go to defense pistol. I bought it because I couldn't afford a Browning.

I also own some spendy Colts I bought as my budget increased.

I now own three FEG hi-powers.

There were a LOT of well made bargain guns that game out of Eastern Europe. FEG made an impression on me. I can afford 'brand name' pistols, and I keep on plugging away with my FEG as my primary defensive and competition pistol.

Sometimes fit and feel and personal experience fly in the face of 'expert opinion.' There are good quality affordable guns out there, and there are fine made pieces with premium prices. What works for YOU is what is important.

 

[JTQ]

Ed Ames wrote,
Some folks, and I've known more than a few of these, would rather have nothing than any of the guns you mentioned. They want a Stan Chen 1911 built exactly to their specifications, right down to the fossil mammoth ivory grips, and if they can't have that they aren't going to have anything.

That's the attitude I assumed the OP was referring to with the Grail comment. I'll have my grail or nothing.

Tallball wrote,
I was able to visit a cousin who lives out of state....

... He had some AR's that he had built (he is ex-military) with the very finest parts and with painstaking detail.

...He also had two 9mm pistols. I think they were both HK's, or maybe one was an HK and one was something similar. ...He paid around $1,000 apiece for them.

For clarity, we're comparing ordering up a Stan Chen 1911, that will take several years to deliver and cost several thousands of dollars to a some AR's that were hobby built in the guy's basement and a couple of production HK pistols?

 

[bannockburn]

I'm a little bit of both though as I get older (and presumably wiser?), I find myself looking more at new, higher end of the spectrum type of handguns. Back when I first started out (and not having a lot of money), I was not such a discriminating buyer. I bought just about anything I could afford and typically it was used and in fairly decent shape. Nowadays I have a somewhat larger budget for discretionary spending and I like to buy specific guns that I'm interested in and I want them to be new in the box.