Bargain Shooter or Grail Gun?

[Ed Ames]

For clarity, we're comparing ordering up a Stan Chen 1911, that will take several years to deliver and cost several thousands of dollars to a some AR's that were hobby built in the guy's basement and a couple of production HK pistols?

It is the attitude, not the hardware, that seems to be the subject. The hardware might be a Taurus PT92 with transparent magazines and grip panels because he saw it in Romeo+Juliet, it might be an M1A painted in Barney the Dinosaur motifs, it might be a Cylinder & Slide custom gun, or a bone stock G19. The attitude is "I want exactly what I want, no more, no less, because to me having one ideal specimen is more fulfilling than having five good deals."

 

[JTQ]

The attitude is "I want exactly what I want, no more, no less, because to me having one ideal specimen is more fulfilling than having five good deals."

Fair enough. I understand your point.

 

[Tallball]

I appreciate all of the comments.

There are situations where the different points of view can lead to an acrimonious conversation.

My FiL and I are shooting buddies. We have both been hearing for years how great the CZ75's are. I finally lucked onto one. It was actually an EAA "clone" that I got as surplus for cheap (those last two words should not have surprised you). It had been used for military training and/or a shooting club gun and looked like a LOT of rounds had been fired through it. But it has a great trigger, nice sights, is accurate, reliable, and fits our XL hands well. So my FiL decided to buy one for himself (yeah, sometimes my purchases end up being "guinea pig" purchases for his). He is not a cheapskate like I am, and decided to buy a real CZ75 NiB. He got a good deal on it, but it obviously cost substantially more than my surplus clone. He took it to the range with us on our next outing and asked that I bring mine as well. He shot a few boxes of ammo through his, and I tried it too. He also shot a couple of magazines through mine. The problem was that mine obviously shot better. It has better trigger, seems more accurate, and fits our hands better (apparently the EAA is a little larger than the CZ). Being who he is, he just stated the obvious, added a few choice words for emphasis, shrugged his shoulders, and went on with his shooting. I later mentioned that his would undoubtedly wear in some, he would get used to it, and eventually it would probably shoot better than mine. He gave me his "I know you are just BSing me with your danged optimism" look, smiled, and shrugged again.

But some people in that situation could have gotten embroiled in an argument. Someone in my shoes might have mocked his purchase and belittled him for wasting money. Someone in his shoes might have gone the angry denial route and started going on about how much of a piece of junk my EAA was, just because of hurt feelings. We are not those kinds of people, but it could happen.

Or it could be the opposite situation. A year or two ago we were both looking for "pocket nines". Being me, I found a used LC9 for cheap because everyone wanted the newer LC9s version. It works fine, but the trigger isn't great and it doesn't fit my hand that well. Being him, my FiL worked on finding the best pistol for his needs (as long as it didn't cost a fortune, he is not on the far end of the "grail gun" spectrum). He bought a brand-new SiG. I think it is the 250 model. It is a very nice pistol. I have not compared them or shot them side-by-side, and they might not fall into the exact same category, but his seems to be obviously the better pistol as far as trigger, ergonomics, nd accuracy go. I could have gotten all huffy and tried to claim that mine was just as good, or that he was crazy for spending too much money, or whatever, but I just complimented him on the nice pistol. And he could have told me that I was an idiot for going the cheap route and getting an inferior product, but when he shot it he smiled and said it worked just fine.

I am glad that I never get embroiled in those kinds of arguments with people like my FiL and cousin who are more towards the opposite end of the spectrum from me, but it's easy to see how it happens.

(I wasn't done with this post, but had to stop what I was doing for a while and come back to it. I just posted what I had and came back to edit/finish it, so this version is significantly different.)

 

[Hookeye]

I hunt, and used to target shoot, so plinking aint my thing.
Nothing against folks having fun putting lead down range.

But for me, after I zero a rig, it's about taking it out and using it.
Continuing to shoot it at the range does nothing but waste my time and ammo.

Off to the range to zero 3 rifles today. Might try for a coyote at dawn tomorrow with one of them (700 rem, .243...........minor stock work, see if it changed impact, Ruger #1 .243............just got optic on it, and AR15 just built- cheapy).

 

[JTQ]

Since you mentioned EAA...

I followed a couple of threads on another forum by a guy that changed handguns on a semi-regular basis, as he was learning and trying to find the "perfect" handgun. He ended up with an EAA Witness (he had been a Beretta 92 shooter, and pro shooter Ben Stoeger had recently switched from a Beretta to an EAA, so no doubt there was some follow the leader there), one of their higher end competition guns. He was enthralled with it and the performance he had with the gun. Then something broke. He spent a lot of time and effort trying to get a replacement for the broken part, some other spare parts, get the gun fixed, etc. Nothing was easy. Parts were hard to come by, it at all, finding somebody to fix the gun was nearly impossible, etc.

His next thread was on logistics. His new belief was no matter how great that gun performed in his hands, when it broke, he couldn't get parts, get the gun fixed, etc., so he moved on again to something else, that he could get parts for, etc.

 

[BSA1]

I'm mostly a accumulator. I enjoy owning and shooting a variety of handguns. As many different ones as my poor budget allows me to get away with.

The rise in the price of handguns, especially revolvers, and the Banic of 2013 - 2014 has caused me to reexamine how much of a need the gun really fills.

For example a Grail Gun to me is the new Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt / 45 ACP which has a mrsp of $1,000.

Now I love the 45 Colt. A Ruger Vaquero that we used for many years in CAS and CMSA now hangs loaded on the bedpost on my side of the bed. A 45 ACP revolver would be a lot of fun but since I have several 1911's so the 45 ACP is covered.

I was reading a article in the latest issue of The American Rifleman about the new Ruger American semi-auto. It is going to be offered in 9mm and 45 acp. Now I have several different 9mm's but the 45 only in 1911's. Truth be known the 1911's are larger forgotten in the safe as I my interest has waned over the years. So the Ruger American 45 should be had for less than $500.00 once the market settles down and fills a empty spot in my 45 Autos.

So my choice is one handgun that shoots two different cartridges (Redhawk) for a $1,000 or adding new different model 45 acp (American) for $500 and another $500 of play money. In fact I could add a Ruger SR9c 9mm that I craved since my daughter brought one and even add some magazines.

A quick check shows the last three handguns I brought were all for $250 - $300. They are all top quality handguns. Two of them are in like new and I am convinced have never been shot. The last gun I brought at the end of December is a Pietta Single Action revolver as a reward to myself for some very painful surgery I had a few days later. I got it for well less than $300.00 and it looks like it has hardly been shot. (In fact I have not even been able to shoot it as I am still to crippled up to even think about driving.)

If my shooting interests were myopic like the O.P.'s cousin then it would be easier to limit my choices and focus on some Grail guns.

 

[usp9]

The best of both worlds is scoring a great gun, one that commands both universal respect and usually a commensurate high price, for the bargain basement gun price. That to me is the utmost goal in the gun collector realm. I've done that a few times and it is very satisfying. On the other hand, there are the ones that got away...!!

 

[Reloadron]

I think sometimes there are disagreements on THR due to people falling into these different categories and not understanding each other, or believing that there is a definite "right" or "wrong" way of approaching things. Some people think that if you would depend on something like a Star or an FEG for SD, you are completely out of your mind. Some people think that if you would pay more than $400 for any firearm whatsoever, you are completely out of your mind. There is no right or wrong to this. We are just enjoying the same hobby in different ways.

So let's just be amused by each other's quirks!

It is very simple, I am right and you are wrong. My taste in guns is excellent and yours, for want of a better word, sucks!

Seriously? Many people see their guns as a personal extension of their taste, much like they see a car or truck. My brother, ten years my junior likes certain cars where I have always been a truck type myself. Even in guns his taste differs which I see as a "good thing" because Russ will buy guns I would never consider so I get to shoot some different stuff. The fact I would not buy a certain gun for myself does not mean I would not like to send a few downrange with it.

As to cost? Not everyone can drop a grand or two on a gun and think little of it. While I have some very nice guns I have not ended up in poverty trying to pay for them. Every now and then a nice gun comes along at a great price and I buy it. My friends and neighbors all know I enjoy shooting and guns so if they know someone looking to sell estate stuff or guns in general they mention me. So over the years guns just accumulate. Reminds me I need to refinish the gun room and get another safe. Logistics problems.

Ron

 

[tarosean]

Many people see their guns as a personal extension of their taste, much like they see a car or truck.

you see it on any type of forum, group, etc... People defend what they spent their hard earned money on. In addition, cry the loudest when something goes wrong.
Human nature I suppose?

As for me? there is not a plastic gun on earth that i would consider "grail" material.

 

[Reloadron]

you see it on any type of forum, group, etc... People defend what they spent their hard earned money on. In addition, cry the loudest when something goes wrong.
Human nature I suppose?

As for me? there is not a plastic gun on earth that i would consider "grail" material.

Yeah, human nature I guess. Over the years I have seen some peculiar things done to guns to "personalize" them. I look away wondering why someone would screw up a perfectly good gun and then remember it is their gun to do with as they please. My screwed up gun is another shooters Holy Grail.

Ron

 

[AZ Desertrat]

Getting close to retirement, I do have to watch the dollar like everyone else. But I have
down-sized the collection over the years. Now I buy quality name brand stuff, that is affordable on my budget, (Not the most expensive) but items that I know will last till
I am dust. YMMV.

 

[GBExpat]

I have a cousin who also has a sizable collection (accumulation) of firearms but, unlike me, he is a Remchesterby kinda guy while I much prefer milsurps and older firearms that "exhibit some character".

Two encounters, last decade, with him really highlighted for me our different points of view ...

I was walking around the ancestral farm one beautiful cold day with my best SVT-40 on my shoulder. This SVT-40 is as close to pristine as I have ever seen. I came upon my cousin with one of his hunting rifles on his shoulder. He expressed an interest in the odd-looking rifle and I handed it over to him, explaining what it is. After looking it over for a moment his summary comment was, "They sure made them crude, didn't they" ... I had to agree.

The 2nd scenario involved a lower grade M1 that the CMP had just sent to me. Aside from the slightest bit of wear on the parkerizing on top of the barrel, it looked to me like it might have spent its entire life on a rack, untouched (and, perhaps, what caused the finish wear on the barrel). I was taking in the amazing condition of the rifle when my cousin stopped by. I showed him the rifle and he asked what I planned to do about the worn area on top of the barrel. <chuckle>

Schönheit liegt im Auge des Betrachters, as they say ...

When he looks at an old military rifle, all he sees is an old military rifle while I see much more.

 

[jmr40]

While there is nothing wrong with either approach, I was much like you when younger. But after years of owning lots of different guns I now know what I like and works best for me. I've sold off a bunch and used the proceeds to purchase fewer, but better quality at this point in my life.

Not all cost me a lot of money. I've been able to sell or trade several that I'd owned for years for quite a bit more than I paid for them even though they were, and still are bargain shooters. But not junk, they were good enough to appreciate in value over time. True junk does not.

 

[spEKTre]

I bought a revolver sight unseen and when it turned up at my dealer I was majorly distressed. It was a 357 S&W k frame model 66 and it looked like it had been dropped through a shredder. The only good thing was there was a brand new slab barrel on it. Long story short I spent a tonne on to get its timing back, new trigger because the previous owner ground it down to a fine wire, new aristocrat sight because the previous owner ground out the side wings and installed a cutting tip as the front sight. The worst bit was the left hand side wall had been tig welded and the heat marks and roung ground finish caused me to ring the idiot up and abuse him for ruining a perfectly good wheel gun.

Now its sweet and shoots like a demon.

 

[lefteyedom]

I now Dollar cost averaging, keep putting way the same amount of money each payday toward the "next one".

There are the core guns that are dear to me, and then the rest are "neat but trade-able".

With the passing years the "neat but trade-able" list gets longer and the dear to me list becomes more exclusive.

 

[Jim NE]

I have an "arbitrary" price limit of $500 on my guns. I've violated that rule on a couple of rare occasions, but aside from that, the limit isn't that really that arbitrary, because less expensive guns are generally a far more liquid "asset" than really expensive guns. I understand that $1000 guns are often better than $500 guns, but usually not two times better. They might be perceived as twice as good for competitive shooters, where small increments in quality/performance can make a difference in outcome, but I don't compete.

Some really great (even world class) pistols can still be had for around $500 or less, like the CZ-75 or used K frame S&W revolvers (which can be a whole lot less expensive than 5 bills.) Who would call those low quality?

But I also own a couple of Hi Point pistols and couple of Hi Point carbines. Some wouldn't like those guns...but I do, so who cares? A friend tried to sell his high end competitive rimfire rifle, but nobody would buy it. Limited market for a used $1200 rifle that can put five rounds in a quarter size hole at 50 yards when there are new $400 rifles that will put five rounds in a half dollar sized hole at the same distance. It's called "diminishing returns." But to each their own. I'm glad there are people out there who make very high quality guns, and customers out there who will support such a craft.

 

[Vernon1]

New To Me Glock !7 Gen One LE Trade In

I paid $325.00 for a Model 17 Gen One LEO trade in. Circa 1988-1990.

With shipping 0f $30.00. Total $355.00.

When I opened the box and removed the slide it was caked with severe rust.

Rusted so bad that the slide would not move.

Glock told me the frame was so brittle the gun was dangerous. Everything including the barrel was ruined by rust so severe the parts crumbled in the tech's hands.

I gave the gun to Glock to dispose of it. I have learned a $355.00 lesson.

I know the seller will not give me a dime. I will never again purchase without holding the weapon. Folks say a Glock will not rust? Baloney...