Barrel cleanliness and accuracy

[Palladan44]

As the decades roll by, I use less and less cleaning products. My bottle of Hoppe's is at least 15 years old and still half full. What im trying to say is.......I don't clean my guns very often.

I care about preventing rust and corrosion and religiously wipe down iron before storing it in the safe long term, and oil moving parts. If an action, slide, frame, crane, or cylinder gets gritty...I wipe it out to get some of it out of there.
I will clean a bore about once a year.....if it's say a deer rifle that sees a few shots a year to sight in and go in the woods.

I will wipe out the action of an AR but rarely clean the barrel.

My glocks which I use for carry get wiped out periodically, but I almost never clean out the barrels.

Revolvers I will clean if I see leading in the barrel, which on occasion can be quite prominent, but sometimes I'll save some hot jacketed ammo for the end of the range session and sometimes there's will clean out that lead in a hurry.

How does barrel cleanliness effect accuracy?
It's really the only factor I could be convinced to clean more often. At what point does copper fouling occur and become an issue? I do see streaks of copper coloring (or green oxidized coloring) in some of the barrels..... do I need to worry? Does copper fouling build up over longer periods of time and begin to become a problem? By not cleaning pistols or Rifles often,can I expect a slow deterioration in accuracy over time due to copper fouling buildup?

I shoot often, but havnt really observed accuracy differences in clean barrels vs. Dirty ones except in Rifles at longer ranges.
Any observations?

 

[Airborne Falcon]

I'm ex military so ... we keep ours clean.

I also shot competitively for a few years ... I kept mine clean.

I dunno, clean pipes and actions always made me feel better. I believe dirty adversely affects accuracy as does heat, or lack thereof.

That's just me. Someone is going to come along and tell me I'm wrong. I may be ... but I sure feel better when everything is clean and lubed properly. The military probably ruined me like that, who knows.

 

[taliv]

depends on the barrel and cartridge and probably powder. when i was shooting 260AI, i'd get about 1000 rounds before accuracy would drop off and be restored by cleaning. This was consistent over about a dozen barrels i wore out. With 6.5x47L, I need to clean about every 300 rounds before i see groups open up.

i couldn't say what causes it. it's not a build up of copper.

however, i did have a rifle that built up a lot of copper and after about 50 rounds on the barrel, started showing severe over pressure signs. thoroughly cleaning the barrel with copper solvent dropped the pressure back to normal. so it's possible, but that wasn't an accuracy issue

 

[Palladan44]

however, i did have a rifle that built up a lot of copper and after about 50 rounds on the barrel, started showing severe over pressure signs. thoroughly cleaning the barrel with copper solvent dropped the pressure back to normal. so it's possible, but that wasn't an accuracy issue

I would expect that in the above scenario the groups would start to differ considerably as the fouling progressed... 1 MOA the first 3 shots and 5 MOA on shots #48, 49 and 50. But maybe not.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

depends on the barrel and cartridge and probably powder.

however, i did have a rifle that built up a lot of copper and after about 50 rounds on the barrel, started showing severe over pressure signs. thoroughly cleaning the barrel with copper solvent dropped the pressure back to normal. so it's possible, but that wasn't an accuracy issue

That first part is definitely true.

That second part ... would you consider sharing, with us, the make and model or at least the maker of the barrel and if it was a specific type of rifling perhaps? Length? Bolty or AR or something else? Because that second part really intrigues me.

 

[JeffG]

Shooting a rifle especially, brings the condition of the bore and action further away from the zero of being clean. Clean is "zero" for me. I return the rifle to zero for the next time it is needed. For my rifles I shoot for fine accuracy, I wipe all the cleaning solvents/and oil out of the bore and chamber with denatured alcohol, to make my cold bore shot as consistent as possible.

 

[Palladan44]

Shooting a rifle especially, brings the condition of the bore and action further away from the zero of being clean. Clean is "zero" for me. I return the rifle to zero for the next time it is needed. For my rifles I shoot for fine accuracy, I wipe all the cleaning solvents/and oil out of the bore and chamber with denatured alcohol, to make my cold bore shot as consistent as possible.

I like this idea. Makes sense. I assume you notice accuracy deteriorate as the rifle gets shot more without being cleaned?

 

[Mr. Hill]

I don’t think having a clean barrel (or needing a fouled barrel) matters much, but I don’t let them get filthy enough to know otherwise. I don’t like to let a lot of carbon and gunk build up.

But I also take it easy when I clean, especially with the barrel. I let it soak in hoppies no. 9 and I don’t usually use a brush. I guess I’m influenced by Gale McMillan’s writings about owners damaging rifle bores with overzealous cleaning being a big problem. So while I usually (mostly) clean after each use, I take it easy on cleaning and fluid. It doesn’t need much.

 

[Robert]

My 375 H&H starts to open up if the barrel is too dirty.

My AR gets cleaned once a year and stays pretty wet most of the time. It does not seem to care about being dirty. Squirt some lube on the moving parts and it keeps on rocking.

My FAL could not possibly care any less. I've hade to use pliers to get the gas plug off before due to fouling, but it was still running like a top. Keep it well oiled an it just keeps running as long as you feed it. Now, it will start to open up once it gets real hot, but you can't touch the fore end at that point...

My 375 gets cleaned after every range or hunting trip and before any hunting trip just to be safe. The other get cleaned as needed. So it just depends on the rifle, the barrel, the round and other factors. All three rifles are using 4895 because it just works.

 

[jmr40]

I'm talking rifles, not handguns.

A perfectly clean barrel will almost always place the 1st few rounds into a different point of impact than it will after having a few rounds through it. Virtually all rifles will shoot more accurately after a few shots to foul the barrel. How many shots depends on the individual barrel. It could be1 shot, or a dozen.

After that you will get optimum accuracy. At least for a while. You will reach a point where the barrel gets so dirty that accuracy will deteriorate. Once again, this is highly dependent on the individual barrel. Some may need to be cleaned after 50 rounds, others may still be accurate for 500.

For me, as primarily a hunter and casual range plinker it takes a while for me to get enough shots through my rifles to see accuracy degrade. I give my rifles a thorough cleaning after hunting season ends. By thorough cleaning I mean I remove it from the stock and disassemble it as much as practical.

During winter months I get to the range quite often to practice and maybe experiment with different loads. I'll wipe down the exterior and clean any grime out of the action after every shooting session. But the barrels don't get cleaned until spring.

I shoot a little less during summers since it is so hot here. But will get in some practice, especially late summer getting ready for hunting season. About 2 weeks before hunting season starts they all get another thorough cleaning. But every rifle gets to the range and I fire at least one magazine through it to foul the barrels before I start hunting with it and to verify zero since the action has been out of the stock.

After that I don't touch the barrels between September and January unless one gets wet from hunting in rain. That rifle will get a thorough cleaning, but I'll hunt with something else until I get a chance to foul the barrel and verify zero.

From the military perspective. Those rifles could very likely see more rounds through them in a few minutes than I'll fire in a year. It makes a lot more sense to always start with a clean rifle and barrel.

 

[Obturation]

it really depends. I've said this more times than I can count- I'm no long range shooter. 100 - 200 yards is all we get around here at local ranges. I rarely shoot over 100 and typically less. I was religious about squeeky clean guns for many years, now I'm more like the OP, I wipe down guns when I pit them away but rarely clean the bore.

My 45-70 Henry gets shot a lot, cast bullets with hi-tek coating. I haven't cleaned the bore in probably 1000 rounds, it's still more accurate than it should be, if I do my part it'll hold under 2" at 100 yards. Plenty good for me.

If accuracy is what you expect and there's no corrosion issues, carry on. If accuracy diminishes , give her a scrubbing, only you can determine that.

 

[FL-NC]

My inline ML loses accuracy FAST with a dirty bore. So much that when I zero it, I pull a damp boresnake and a dry patch through it after each shot, which adds even more steps to an already tedious process- but it achieves consistency in a rifle that has a low round count at the range and an even lower round count in the field.

 

[Jdague12]

As a USMC vet, I just can’t bring myself to put a dirty firearm away. Not only would you never turn in a dirty firearm, the armorers would never take it from you. I don’t clean them to inspection ready, but I won’t be embarrassed either. I like to think that a clean firearm shoots better, but I know better. I know people that have shot their firearms many times and have NEVER cleaned them (Yes, I’m cringing right now), and they still fire and shoot accurately. Just how I was raised and taught.

 

[Steve S.]

I think that firearms/ action/ barrel cleanliness is like most human perspective; the truth is somewhere in the middle. Squeaky clean is to the right of the Bell Curve and absolute filth/ corrosion is to the left - most owners are somewhere in between these two extremes - and this kind of thread confirms the existence of the Curve on this and most firearms subjects.
I fit close to the extreme right on the cleanliness curve due more to personality (granted military service and anal-ness) than necessity but I believe that the middle is much more true than my practices. I am comfortable in that position and I am comfortable where all others fit in the curve - I only own my firearms and I do not own theirs.

 

[Palladan44]

My inline ML loses accuracy FAST with a dirty bore. So much that when I zero it, I pull a damp boresnake and a dry patch through it after each shot, which adds even more steps to an already tedious process- but it achieves consistency in a rifle that has a low round count at the range and an even lower round count in the field.

This is the case with my traditional .45 and .50 Caliber muzzleloaders with patched roundball. I assume that dirty gritties in the barrel begin cutting into the patch causing gas to escape past it... this can happen in as few as 3-5 shots. When I recover the patches from about 10 yds downrange, the evidence is pretty apparent. If accuracy is desired, I'd jag this material out every shot and I can keep them in a 2" group at 50 yds when shooting from a bench....which is pretty good considering the front sight post covers an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at that range, and I square off the corners of the square front sight post with the top corners of the paper..... that gun is way more accurate than the coarse sights allow. I'd like to replace with a finer front blade sight.

 

[JeffG]

I like this idea. Makes sense. I assume you notice accuracy deteriorate as the rifle gets shot more without being cleaned?

The hyper accurate ones, yes. It's not a big difference. I am gentle with cleaning, it isn't some muscle and brush quest. I let the solvents do their job.

 

[taliv]

That first part is definitely true.

That second part ... would you consider sharing, with us, the make and model or at least the maker of the barrel and if it was a specific type of rifling perhaps? Length? Bolty or AR or something else? Because that second part really intrigues me.

it happened about 12 years ago and my barrel logs are in storage unit at the moment so ill try to remember to grab them sometime in the next few weeks to respond. I don’t want to do it from memory as my memory isn’t so good anymore. But it was a bolt gun for sure in 260 AI and either a bartlein or broughton barrel between 26-28”. It was very accurate before and after the incident.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you care to go back 145 years, the Irish said that the Americans had the advantage at Creedmoor because their breechloaders made it feasible to wipe every shot, not because a Remington or Sharps was inherently more accurate than a Rigby.
When I was shooting BPCR I took the easy way out and blow tubed, but there were a number of shooters wiping after every shot and cleaning after every string.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

If you care to go back 145 years, the Irish said that the Americans had the advantage at Creedmoor because their breechloaders made it feasible to wipe every shot, not because a Remington or Sharps was inherently more accurate than a Rigby.

Awesome reminder and contribution to this thread Jim. All I can do is offer a little background to what you just contributed by stealing a quote from Bang, a little history ....

A brief history of the Creedmoor name

Following the Civil War a Union colonel wanted to address something he had observed in war; young men*especially those from the cities*who had no experience with the shooting sports and thus were more likely to fare poorly in battle. In November 1871, he formed the National Rifle Association with training and education of the nation*s citizens in mind.

In 1872 a 1000 yard range was constructed on the Creed farm on Long Island, New York in what is now known as Queens. The range was opened for use in June, 1873. Britain and Ireland had long-distance rifle teams, which attended this first American shoot. The Creed farm reminded them of the moors of their home lands and the range became known as the Creed moors, aka Creedmoor. (In 1874 the Sharps rifle company marketed a Creedmoor rifle designed for the competition, and faded into history not long after).

Beautiful rifles ....

http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-g...ers/remington-creedmoor-long-range-rifle.aspx

Good read ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creedmoor_Rifle_Range

 

[J-Bar]

From 1959 through 1962 I was a member of our high school ROTC 4-position rifle team, shooting .22 LR Winchesters and Remingtons at 50 feet almost daily. The bores were never cleaned. The bolts may have been wiped off a couple of times a year. Accuracy did not suffer; we were respectable competitors even in interstate postal matches.

My own guns are cleaned after each range trip. I got into the frequent cleaning habit while using blackpowder guns in cowboy action competition. It just spilled over to the smokeless guns automatically (semi-automatically??).

 

[cjwils]

I have seen my own rifles perform differently with the first couple of shots through a clean barrel compared to later shots. But is the difference due to cleanliness or barrel warming? When I am at the range I do not have the time to let the barrel totally cool between shots, so heat might be the deciding factor.

 

[GNP]

Warming has an effect, and it's easy to lose a little concentration and not be absolutely sure whether your groups are opening up due to the barrel needing cleaning or your shooting deteriorating lol. I've done some bench shooting with rifles capable of groups in the 1/4" range and one comes to mind that seemed to like a patch ran through it after about 20 rounds, others shooting well up to 100 shots, which for us would never be fired in one session. The gun will tell you when it's time to clean it.

 

[MutinousDoug]

My army rifles ( 03-a3, M1) take 2-3 shots to settle down after a good cleaning. My AR match gun (Krieger 26" bbl) and my M1 Carbine don't seem to care much although the AR barrel does get wiped but not cleaned until after the Match Season just to be sure. The AR will easily hold the x ring off sandbags and the Carbine barely the 10. My hunting guns (.308 and 6.5x55mm) get fouled before hunting season.

 

[Turkeytider]

As a USMC vet, I just can’t bring myself to put a dirty firearm away. Not only would you never turn in a dirty firearm, the armorers would never take it from you. I don’t clean them to inspection ready, but I won’t be embarrassed either. I like to think that a clean firearm shoots better, but I know better. I know people that have shot their firearms many times and have NEVER cleaned them (Yes, I’m cringing right now), and they still fire and shoot accurately. Just how I was raised and taught.

That`s me and I`m too old (74) now to change. I remember Dad, after a day hunting, " You clean that gun, boy? ". He always said, " Take care of your equipment and it`ll take care of you. " Of course, I`m sure two years in the Pacific would give someone a certain outlook on that subject! One thing I have done is check my .223 Savage with a first shot out of a clean cold bore to make sure it`s still acceptable for a hunting round.

Semper Fi

 

[243winxb]

Not using a bronze brush for rifle, can allow thing to build up, that you dont want.

HOPPE's Foaming Bore Cleaner is faster the #9. Just started using the foam. Then finish with #9.

Just wetting dirty chambers & barrels with Break free CLP will keep rust from forming, before storage.

Just putting a fired gun away, with nothing oiled, reminds me of a 1903 Springfield rifle a guy wanted to sell me. Could not see daylight thru the barrel. Worst pitting i ever seen.

If going to shoot the same guns a couple weeks later, just wipe off finger prints.