Vern Humphrey
Member
And the old canteen cups had a horizontal slot in the handle to fit the baynet, for just that purpose -- taking a canteen cup of boiling water off the fire.
Bayonets - Do They Still Have a Use?
- Thread starter CmdrSlander
- Start date
- Status
splattergun
Member
My stepson was in Kosovo with the 101st AB in July of 2001. THeir job was to keep Christians from killing all the Muslims, and also to keep foreign insurgents of both parties from coming across the border to escalate the fighting. One day his squad came across a platoon sized group of Al Qaeda fighters (the very same AQ) coming across the border. The AQ fired first, so his squad engaged with the SAW, rifles and grenade launcher.
After the smoke cleared, the surviving AQ were rounded up and held AT BAYONET point until the Intel unit arrived. Son said those insurgents were scared senseless of the little pointy things.
Full-on bayonet charges may be a thing of the past, at least for the time being, but bayonets still serve a legitimate purpose.
After the smoke cleared, the surviving AQ were rounded up and held AT BAYONET point until the Intel unit arrived. Son said those insurgents were scared senseless of the little pointy things.
Full-on bayonet charges may be a thing of the past, at least for the time being, but bayonets still serve a legitimate purpose.
I'm not 68wj, but I'll answer. There's a lug on the scabbard that goes through the hole in the blade, forming a kind of scissor that makes a pretty good wire cutter. I used to see AK bayonets all over at gun shows for $10 to $15.
I've never served either, but I've heard that you know you're in deep when the call is given to fix bayonets!
To echo fatelk, it was to pair with the scabbard to cut concertina wire. Worked pretty well from what I understand, but never needed to. That one came from Iraq, but they are common anywhere surplus is found.68wj - what's the square hole in the AK bayonet for? And where could a guy buy such a deliciously evil thing?
Greenmachin3
Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 93
Regarding the purpose of spike bayonets vs bladed and the action of slashing:
Bladed bayonets are more versatile. Can be used as field knife, wire cutter, etc. Other than that, I would never slash with a bayonet except to put my opponent off balance. Slash wounds are very seldom fatal, whereas stab wounds are very often fatal. Spike bayonets are a cheap and effective way of achieving stab wounds on the opponent. I suggest anyone interested to read the book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" It goes into good detail about training a soldier to stab, and how unnatural it is at first. Roman soldiers knew this, they were taught to stab, and were even known to use the word slasher in a derogatory sense when referring to an untrained enemy soldier since slashing is apparently a more natural motion to stabbing in the chaos of battle; it's also considerably less effective.
I think bayonets most certainly have a use. From crowd control to room clearing to ceremonial purposes to the traditional bayonet charge. I honestly think the Brits have kept them the most relevant with successful bayonet charges in the Falklands and both Gulf conflicts. Before the invention of the firearm, the spear was the king of battle. It was the primary, and soldiers across the globe fought with them first and foremost, the sword was the secondary. The bayonet is like having a backup spear to your firearms.
Bladed bayonets are more versatile. Can be used as field knife, wire cutter, etc. Other than that, I would never slash with a bayonet except to put my opponent off balance. Slash wounds are very seldom fatal, whereas stab wounds are very often fatal. Spike bayonets are a cheap and effective way of achieving stab wounds on the opponent. I suggest anyone interested to read the book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" It goes into good detail about training a soldier to stab, and how unnatural it is at first. Roman soldiers knew this, they were taught to stab, and were even known to use the word slasher in a derogatory sense when referring to an untrained enemy soldier since slashing is apparently a more natural motion to stabbing in the chaos of battle; it's also considerably less effective.
I think bayonets most certainly have a use. From crowd control to room clearing to ceremonial purposes to the traditional bayonet charge. I honestly think the Brits have kept them the most relevant with successful bayonet charges in the Falklands and both Gulf conflicts. Before the invention of the firearm, the spear was the king of battle. It was the primary, and soldiers across the globe fought with them first and foremost, the sword was the secondary. The bayonet is like having a backup spear to your firearms.
Last edited:
In WW1, the Germans were terrified in their trenches when the French Poilus got into close combat with the bayonet. Just finished reading the 8 volumes of "Stories of the Great War" and there were numerous incidents of German soldiers screaming in fear and fleeing when the Poilus made bayonet charges.
The individual French Poilu in that war was exceptionally well trained with the bayonet and used it to great effect.
The individual French Poilu in that war was exceptionally well trained with the bayonet and used it to great effect.
Just a FYI:
Removing material from a blade or barrel will never make them stiffer than they were before they were modified.
Depending on where the material is removed from it may make them stiffer for their weight before they modified.
Removing material from a blade or barrel will never make them stiffer than they were before they were modified.
Depending on where the material is removed from it may make them stiffer for their weight before they modified.
Ignition Override
Member
The book "Urban Survival" must have been written/published in the UK. The photos of the locations leave little doubt.
It was in the Memphis/Germantown' Borders Books' shortly before they shutdown.
In the self-defense chapter with a photo of knives, one is a blade bayonet for the Lee-Enfield #4/Mk. 2 rifle. This proves how effective it can be, right?
By the way, this UK book warns you not to use force on any attacker which exceeds the level of the threat. But how do you evaluate the threat until After you are attacked, knifed (very popular right now), shot etc?
68wj: one of your bayonets looks exactly like it fits an AK clone, one other is a duplicate of my black Spanish FR8 (G-3) blade.
It was in the Memphis/Germantown' Borders Books' shortly before they shutdown.
In the self-defense chapter with a photo of knives, one is a blade bayonet for the Lee-Enfield #4/Mk. 2 rifle. This proves how effective it can be, right?
By the way, this UK book warns you not to use force on any attacker which exceeds the level of the threat. But how do you evaluate the threat until After you are attacked, knifed (very popular right now), shot etc?
68wj: one of your bayonets looks exactly like it fits an AK clone, one other is a duplicate of my black Spanish FR8 (G-3) blade.
ninjaiguana
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2011
- Messages
- 2
As an instructor in an aviation co. I had the privlige (sp.) of instructing and cert. a gentleman who had fought in the 7th division of the Army of the United States....He was stationed on the 38th parallel in 1945 and at THAT time had north korean line crossers in his area and north koreans (Stalinists) trying to provoke him....in lots of ways...in one instance this north korean stood 10 feet inside the south korean border taunting the american guards for an hour my "student " Gene fired his M1 Garand 8 rounds into the tree immediatly above said miscreant's head...30.06 at 15 feet! talk about loud! the subject remained and again mocked the GI's..Gene fixwd his bayonet...the subject fled right away,,,,,Something about cold steel!
kBob
Member
"What now, LT?"
Beat Vern has heard that line. In Officerbasic the instructors will put young shave tail into some despirite situation or another and ask that dread question. At some point the instructors would pile it on so deep that sunlight had to be piped in just to see what the new butter bar would do.
I always made them happy when I looked down the line and yelled out "Prepare to fix bayonets!.......FIX! .....BAYONETS!"
I learned the "old style" bayonet drill in high school. One of our JROTC instructors believed that the bayonet was important.....based on his having used one on multiple occassions as a weapon. I "learned" the modern style in basic training. We had little actual training in the service, but Pugil stick training was a highlight in basic. WHat bayonet training there was was mainly to intill the spirit of the bayonet. In those days everyone went through eight weeks of Basic Combat Training before being sent to Advanced Individual Training. Cooks, clerks, mechanics, photographers, and the few Combat Arms folks went through eight weeks together before being sent to other places. Later I would be a trainer in a One Unit Station Training where all the trainees in our company were to be 11B and 11C (Light weapons and indirect fire crewman) Infantry.
Whether Infantrymen, Tread heads, Redlegs, Chaindogs, finance clerks, night bakers, or chaplins assistints, the blood pumped faster and harder when the steel came out. Bayonet traininng instilled the spirit of the bayonet when taught enmass. For that reason alone the bayonet is or can be important.
I will say that with the M-16 A1 and M7 Bayonet-knife we were taught to never use the veritcal butt stroke as this put pressure on the recoil spring tube that might break it at the point it enters the lower reciever. We were taight to use the horizontal butt stroke wher ethe rifle is raised with the muzzle over the shoulder pointed away and the butt plate slammed in a straght line horizontally into the target. I also found that using the M-16A1 in parries could result in the foregrips breaking and that the front sights and gas tube seemed more fragile ( actually broken or damaged)than the M-ls and M-14s I learned and spared with as a highschooler. Twists on the rifle while the bayonet was in or against something could also result in the bayonet coming off the M-16A1, not something I saw happen with wood stocked rifles but I imagine might be a problem with the carbine with its simular bayonet attachment.
Still I would be happier when I had an M7 to go with an M-16A1 than when not...even when carrying a full load, body armor, and spare water. I also carried sheath knife, pocket knife, a file a double sided stone and a cresent wrench as all were useful and my M2 cap crimpers.
In one unit I belonged to the bayonets were kept sharp, even the so called "false edge". I thought this a very good thing for while a slash was not the preferred attack, anything that could hurt the other guy was a good thing. I was taught to slash as a follow through to parries or when at very close quarters to slash while getting into the position to thrust. Other units insisted the blades were not to be sharpened.
BTW in that sharp unit we also sharpend three of the four edges of our old style wood handled e-tools and, in my platoon, a couple of times turned out with e-tools for some "batting practice" What was to be done with an e-tool was neither a stab or slash but a chop like with a meat cleaver. When we saw our first tri fold e-tool we immediately had a digging contest which the wood handle easily won, the outcome of a e-tool fight between the trifold and a 1944 Ames wood handled folder seemed a for gone conclusion though.
With the bayonet, slashes, parries, and butt strokes were taught as means to get into position for the thrust which was the kill.
WHen I was working as a gunrag writer and editor I got one of the early Primus M-9s to test and write up. Don't know if they still have them but the original design had a bottle opener built in. It was just a cuttout on the blade side of the cross guard, but it worked as I opened my Dr.Pepper with it all week and a photo of a Dr. Pepper botle being open appeared in the article. This was considered an important feature as GIs would use the feed lips of their rifle magazines to open bottles with. I saw more than one bottle opened with a magazine and believe that pressure on the feed lips sometimes bent the feed lips causing failures to feed in the M-16A1. Not sure there are many non twist off bottle caps around these days though. I cut some double stranded barbed wire, some hurricane (chain link) fencing and a live electrical cord with a lamp plugged into it with the knife linked to the sheath. There was an attched sharpening stone on the sheath. I still felt that the M7 was a better weapon though the M9s' other uses were convinent.
I, long ago before M9s and before AKM bayonets were generally available in the USA, had a "Stoner bayonet" for the AR rifles. It had wire cutting ability, a usable saw ( I used it to make flat ends on feild expeident tent pegs), and a flat head screw driver. But the blade was a thin flat piece with a beval on just one side and a faux bowie false edge. Mine did not have the front sight adjustment tool which was the main feature I thought would be useful.
The bayonet is of course a weapon but it is also a statement. It says to an enemy "I am ready to stick you and mess you up all permentant like" It says to the man weilding it "You are ready to stick him and mess him all up all permentant like and YOU CAN!" Frequently attitute is the most improtant thing going on, it can prevent bad things from happening. The spirit of the Bayonet is an attitude, an attitude of winning.
-kBob
Beat Vern has heard that line. In Officerbasic the instructors will put young shave tail into some despirite situation or another and ask that dread question. At some point the instructors would pile it on so deep that sunlight had to be piped in just to see what the new butter bar would do.
I always made them happy when I looked down the line and yelled out "Prepare to fix bayonets!.......FIX! .....BAYONETS!"
I learned the "old style" bayonet drill in high school. One of our JROTC instructors believed that the bayonet was important.....based on his having used one on multiple occassions as a weapon. I "learned" the modern style in basic training. We had little actual training in the service, but Pugil stick training was a highlight in basic. WHat bayonet training there was was mainly to intill the spirit of the bayonet. In those days everyone went through eight weeks of Basic Combat Training before being sent to Advanced Individual Training. Cooks, clerks, mechanics, photographers, and the few Combat Arms folks went through eight weeks together before being sent to other places. Later I would be a trainer in a One Unit Station Training where all the trainees in our company were to be 11B and 11C (Light weapons and indirect fire crewman) Infantry.
Whether Infantrymen, Tread heads, Redlegs, Chaindogs, finance clerks, night bakers, or chaplins assistints, the blood pumped faster and harder when the steel came out. Bayonet traininng instilled the spirit of the bayonet when taught enmass. For that reason alone the bayonet is or can be important.
I will say that with the M-16 A1 and M7 Bayonet-knife we were taught to never use the veritcal butt stroke as this put pressure on the recoil spring tube that might break it at the point it enters the lower reciever. We were taight to use the horizontal butt stroke wher ethe rifle is raised with the muzzle over the shoulder pointed away and the butt plate slammed in a straght line horizontally into the target. I also found that using the M-16A1 in parries could result in the foregrips breaking and that the front sights and gas tube seemed more fragile ( actually broken or damaged)than the M-ls and M-14s I learned and spared with as a highschooler. Twists on the rifle while the bayonet was in or against something could also result in the bayonet coming off the M-16A1, not something I saw happen with wood stocked rifles but I imagine might be a problem with the carbine with its simular bayonet attachment.
Still I would be happier when I had an M7 to go with an M-16A1 than when not...even when carrying a full load, body armor, and spare water. I also carried sheath knife, pocket knife, a file a double sided stone and a cresent wrench as all were useful and my M2 cap crimpers.
In one unit I belonged to the bayonets were kept sharp, even the so called "false edge". I thought this a very good thing for while a slash was not the preferred attack, anything that could hurt the other guy was a good thing. I was taught to slash as a follow through to parries or when at very close quarters to slash while getting into the position to thrust. Other units insisted the blades were not to be sharpened.
BTW in that sharp unit we also sharpend three of the four edges of our old style wood handled e-tools and, in my platoon, a couple of times turned out with e-tools for some "batting practice" What was to be done with an e-tool was neither a stab or slash but a chop like with a meat cleaver. When we saw our first tri fold e-tool we immediately had a digging contest which the wood handle easily won, the outcome of a e-tool fight between the trifold and a 1944 Ames wood handled folder seemed a for gone conclusion though.
With the bayonet, slashes, parries, and butt strokes were taught as means to get into position for the thrust which was the kill.
WHen I was working as a gunrag writer and editor I got one of the early Primus M-9s to test and write up. Don't know if they still have them but the original design had a bottle opener built in. It was just a cuttout on the blade side of the cross guard, but it worked as I opened my Dr.Pepper with it all week and a photo of a Dr. Pepper botle being open appeared in the article. This was considered an important feature as GIs would use the feed lips of their rifle magazines to open bottles with. I saw more than one bottle opened with a magazine and believe that pressure on the feed lips sometimes bent the feed lips causing failures to feed in the M-16A1. Not sure there are many non twist off bottle caps around these days though. I cut some double stranded barbed wire, some hurricane (chain link) fencing and a live electrical cord with a lamp plugged into it with the knife linked to the sheath. There was an attched sharpening stone on the sheath. I still felt that the M7 was a better weapon though the M9s' other uses were convinent.
I, long ago before M9s and before AKM bayonets were generally available in the USA, had a "Stoner bayonet" for the AR rifles. It had wire cutting ability, a usable saw ( I used it to make flat ends on feild expeident tent pegs), and a flat head screw driver. But the blade was a thin flat piece with a beval on just one side and a faux bowie false edge. Mine did not have the front sight adjustment tool which was the main feature I thought would be useful.
The bayonet is of course a weapon but it is also a statement. It says to an enemy "I am ready to stick you and mess you up all permentant like" It says to the man weilding it "You are ready to stick him and mess him all up all permentant like and YOU CAN!" Frequently attitute is the most improtant thing going on, it can prevent bad things from happening. The spirit of the Bayonet is an attitude, an attitude of winning.
-kBob
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
There's just something about a Garand with a bayonet that speaks "I'm just real serious about messing you up!"
artee
Member
Well stated, kBob, Amen.
Greenmachin3
Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 93
Great post, kBob.
Your last few sentences about the state of mind when one fixes their bayonet resonates with me and what I've read. I have to recommend that book again "On Killing: the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society". It describes not only the importance of actually fighting, but the importance of posturing as well. The bayonet is the ultimate posture describing extreme confidence. Like many have said, merely expressing your will to do what the other guy can't or won't by attaching your bayonet is often enough to come out of the situation on top.
Your last few sentences about the state of mind when one fixes their bayonet resonates with me and what I've read. I have to recommend that book again "On Killing: the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society". It describes not only the importance of actually fighting, but the importance of posturing as well. The bayonet is the ultimate posture describing extreme confidence. Like many have said, merely expressing your will to do what the other guy can't or won't by attaching your bayonet is often enough to come out of the situation on top.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Back in '69 we sprung an ambush at the edge of a village. The surviving NVA (there were no real VC left after Tet of 68') ran back into the village. To close with them, we had to cross a wide open area. I had the platoon leader have his men fix bayonets, and we went across that open area on line. The NVA didn't stand to meet us, but ran out the other side -- where they ran into another ambush.
The most memorable thing that happened was that as I jumped from row to row, I saw by the light of a flare a pile of rags lying between two rows. I jumped over it and then heard someone behind me yell, "He's alive, he's alive!" followed by several quick shots. I looked back to see the bundle of rags holding up an AK 47 and jerking and twitching as each shot hit him.
And there are two morals to that story. The first is that fixing bayonets is something anyone can do, which commits him to do something else he might not otherwise be able to do. The second is never step over a dead man.
The most memorable thing that happened was that as I jumped from row to row, I saw by the light of a flare a pile of rags lying between two rows. I jumped over it and then heard someone behind me yell, "He's alive, he's alive!" followed by several quick shots. I looked back to see the bundle of rags holding up an AK 47 and jerking and twitching as each shot hit him.
And there are two morals to that story. The first is that fixing bayonets is something anyone can do, which commits him to do something else he might not otherwise be able to do. The second is never step over a dead man.
Romeo 33 Delta
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2011
- Messages
- 402
Boy ... do they still have a use? I wouldn't go into combat without one ... EVER!
C-grunt
Member
Modern SOP is to double tap the dead guys you have to pass. Though a quick stick with a bayonet would work well too.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The point is, if the dead guy is the enemy, he ain't dead.
If he's friendly, where do you think he was standing when he got it?
If he's friendly, where do you think he was standing when he got it?
C-grunt
Member
Great words of wisdom right there.
I have to admit, that story shook me a little, along with Vern's synopsis. "Where was he standing when he got it?"
Damn glad to have guys like you that have been there - looking at my 5 young boys and girls, and the freedom they have and enjoy - it's a good time to pause, and say "Thank you".
Damn glad to have guys like you that have been there - looking at my 5 young boys and girls, and the freedom they have and enjoy - it's a good time to pause, and say "Thank you".
Infidel4life11
Member
Heck Yeah, the enemy knows you can't shoot them a little bit but you can cut them a little bit. They never got as scared as I thought they would when you pointed a gun at them, however they would freak out as soon as you pulled a blade. And I always need a way to open a pepsi can when the tab breaks off........AMERICA
Last edited:
- Status
