BB Gun Machine gun

[Zoogster]

A silencer, in and of itself, is an NFA item regardless of what someone uses it for. Even if all you do is use it for a doorstop it's still an NFA item. Given that is what the law actually says, there's no need to twist or argue anything.

Okay after reviewing some actual prosecutions for airgun silencers, and in light of airguns still being sold across the nation with built in silencers I find myself confused.


Further looking at the federal legal definition of a silencer as something that MAY be used reduce the report of a firearm I cannot see anything as being legal.
Yet pillows are legal. People have been prosecuted for trying to use a potato to silence a report, but potatos are legal. Soda bottles, and other items similarly prosecuted.
Yet mere possession of the airgun accessory can be prosecuted as illegal absent intent to reduce the report of a firearm.
So in some cases mere intent makes anything a silencer even things most people own, and in others no intent does as well because it MAY be used to reduce the rpot of a firearm.


So there is many airguns on the market with silencers. Some with integral suppressors.
Yet some argue that even those are the legal definition of silencers because someone could still use them on a firearm by destroying the airgun. Hacksaw off the barrel and it could be use to reduce the report of a firearm. Meaning it could still be considered a silencer, because it could reduce the report of a firearm.
So could my pillow though.



So anything has be prosecuted as a silencer based on intent. Silencer is defined as something that may be used on a firearm to reduce the report.
Airgun silencers are not firearm silencers, but may be used to reduce the report on a firearm, making them NFA silencers. So can a bottle, a pillow, a towel...
Even a barrel shroud could be prosecuted as a silencer because it would reduce the muzzle report by 1 decibel, just like a longer barrel would.

I guess everything is a silencer if the right people say it is.
Illegal shoestring machineguns the shoestring itself considered a machinegun, illegal potato silencers, the potato becoming an illegal NFA item.
The entire population has homes filled with illegal fruit and vegetable silencers!
Illegal fabric silencers (pillows, blankets, towels, clothing.) Illegal...

Anything your overlords discretionarily define as illegal becomes at that moment actualy illegal. In fact since the law has no intent, anything that is declared a silencer and is shown to reduce the report for at least one shot, is a silencer. Pillow, potato, airgun accessory, paintball accessory, it does not matter.
With odd items they have shown intent, but the law never shows that requirement.
Which further means if it is not an item that the jury feels is normal, they would likely agree how the law is written that it meets the definition.
So a barrel shroud, or those fake silencers that are simply tubes without a doubt could be prosecuted as a silencer.

I used the term "silencer" because it is the actual term used in law, and the actual name given to the item by the inventor himself when he invented the automobile muffler and the firearm silencer.

 

[ScottsGT]

To sum it up:
Welcome to the power of the BATFE! We make crap up as we go, and confuse the jurys after stringing the defendant on for two or three years.

 

[crushbup]

Note: I do not advocate airsoft or many of the things people practice while playing it. In fact, I am in favor of banning or severely restricting it due to a culture of unsafe behavior that extends to most commercial fields. I recognize it has some very good, beneficial parts, but I also do not like seeing people get hurt because basic safety is not taught or enforced. It teaches unsafe handling practices with realistic firearms, instead of being used for its potential good to teach proper safety practices. I am pro-gun, but anti-airsoft, because guns should not be treated like toys, and kids should not be playing with pellet guns that can reach potentially lethal velocities with inadequate safety gear.

The government's job is not to make life safer for us. This is the same logic that the Brady Campaign uses. I'm shocked that a High Road member would say something like this.

OMG BAN IT FOR T3H CHILDRENZ SAEK!!!1!!1

 

[chris in va]

I am pro-gun, but anti-airsoft, because guns should not be treated like toys, and kids should not be playing with pellet guns that can reach potentially lethal velocities with inadequate safety gear

Wow, what velocities are these airsoft players achieving? 1800fps? It was my understanding they limit it to around 400fps or less. How is that lethal? Anybody die due to an airsoft pellet fired at normal velocities?

The average airsoft pellet is...4 grains.

 

[Crunker1337]

Airsoft guns aren't guns, but I'd be hesitant to call them toys, since they can inflict damage on property and people, and animals. I'd call them sporting goods... sort of like a baseball bat.

 

[barnetmill]

There are many people like myself that use airsoft guns for training. I payed $300 for my AK look alike and about $150 with accessories for my glock airsoft. Most gun fights occur at close range and often under poor lighting. I shoot at night using instinctive techniques. In a gunfight it is very difficult to focus on your sights while all of your intention will actually be focused on the your enemy. Airsoft is a good way to gain skills. It is good way also to verify your safe gunhandling practices. In short it is an excellent training aid.

 

[JohnKSa]

Okay after reviewing some actual prosecutions for airgun silencers, and in light of airguns still being sold across the nation with built in silencers I find myself confused.

It's not confusing at all.

If it's a silencer it's a NFA item.

If it is permanently affixed to an airgun and can't be removed and used as a silencer on a firearm (per the BATF's approval) then it's not a silencer.

If it is some other non-regulated item (2 liter bottle/lawnmower muffler/potato) that could possibly/theoretically be used as a silencer then it's not a silencer until you use it/try to use it as a silencer.

Sure, it's possible to make it sound confusing and arbitrary, but it's really pretty simple.

That's not to say I think it's the way things should be, I think it's silly to restrict silencers. But I don't think it's anywhere near as hard to understand the laws and how they're enforced as you're trying to make it seem.

 

[ScottsGT]

There was a guy on Ebay selling an adaptor that allowed a soda bottle to be screwed onto the end of a Walther P22 barrel. BATFE told him to stop, got his complete sales list and paid a visit to everyone that had purchase one. Either via US Mail, or in person. But they had to turn in these adaptors.
Please don't ask me for sources! I actually read it here on THR, not too long after Walther came out with the P22.

 

[SMMAssociates]

ScottsGT:

The P22 and some similar guns are easily equipped with a threaded barrel. That allows the attachment of anything from beer cans to grenade launchers )). I'm still wondering why the BATFE didn't go after those....

Regards,

 

[WardenWolf]

Wow, what velocities are these airsoft players achieving?

I've heard of people playing up to 600 FPS with special "sniper" guns. This places the muzzle energy about 1/10 that of a .177 pellet traveling at 670 FPS. Note that people have died from being shot in the head with pellet guns in that caliber and velocity. It may not seem like much, but when you're talking a sizable fraction of lethal energy you're looking at a LOT of damage if someone were to be hit at close range. Nerve damage, concussions, bleeding on the brain, broken fingers, etc. Even if it doesn't penetrate, it's enough to still cause severe injury.

I'm shocked that a High Road member would say something like this.

You don't shoot firearms at people for fun. It's not smart, it's not safe, it's not legal. Nor should be a "game" where you shoot high-velocity pellets at people with inadequate regulation or safety gear. If fields aren't going to insist on proper safety gear, and the industry refuses to provide it (compared to paintball, airsoft's safety culture is stuck in 1990) and educate people about safe play, it's dangerous and needs to be restricted. From a safety perspective, airsoft is 19 years out of date, and it's getting more so by the day.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

You bet. I had an Izhmash Drodz "Beehive" full auto BB gun, and it rocked. But it had no practical use, so I sold it. Highly recommended for just fun however. Had a single shot, 3-round burst, and 6-rounds burst modes, in three different rates of fire.

 

[NeoSpud]

I've heard of people playing up to 600 FPS with special "sniper" guns. This places the muzzle energy about 1/10 that of a .177 pellet traveling at 670 FPS. Note that people have died from being shot in the head with pellet guns in that caliber and velocity. It may not seem like much, but when you're talking a sizable fraction of lethal energy you're looking at a LOT of damage if someone were to be hit at close range. Nerve damage, concussions, bleeding on the brain, broken fingers, etc. Even if it doesn't penetrate, it's enough to still cause severe injury.

One tenth the muzzle energy of a pellet gun is a "sizable fraction?" I doubt it, especially when airsoft BBs are significantly lighter than .177 pellets, and thus even muzzle energy is flawed because they will not deliver the same amount of energy at the range of the target. By the time the BB has gone more than a few dozen yards (as the so called "sniper rifles" in airsoft are meant to do), it has lost a significant amount of energy. In other words, that statistic is meaningless except for CQB, for which 600 FPS sniper rifles would be worthless (not to mention every airsoft field of which I'm aware highly regulates FPS limits for CQB to below 400 FPS with .20g BBs a the very least and requires full seal goggles or face masks).

I have personally been shot with an airsoft sniper rifle firing over 600 FPS with a .30g BB from 25 feet. It hurt quite a bit and left a nasty oozing welt, but it was FAR from a "severe injury," and was certainly nowhere in the "potentially lethal" category. In fact, the worst injury I ever received when playing airsoft was when my leatherman unfolded in my pocket while I was running, and the knife stuck itself into my leg when I took a knee (it felt like a never-ending wasp sting x10).

Airsoft is not lethal, or even close to it.

You don't shoot firearms at people for fun. It's not smart, it's not safe, it's not legal.

Do you have a problem with games like Counterstrike, Call of Duty, or Battlefield 2?

Nor should be a "game" where you shoot high-velocity pellets at people with inadequate regulation or safety gear. If fields aren't going to insist on proper safety gear, and the industry refuses to provide it (compared to paintball, airsoft's safety culture is stuck in 1990) and educate people about safe play, it's dangerous and needs to be restricted. From a safety perspective, airsoft is 19 years out of date, and it's getting more so by the day.

Have you ever played at a professional airsoft field? Every one I've gone to had the players sign a waiver, and must wear suitable eye protection (you can replace your teeth, but not eyes). Everyone playing knows the risks, and they accept that it is THEIR responsibility to be accountable for the consequences of those risks. If you don't want to risk getting your teeth shot out, dont play or wear a mask. No one is forcing you.

It comes down to this: who is responsible for your safety? The government, or YOU?

 

[Matt304]

If you want a full-auto BB gun, get the Drozd.

I had one a while back, and you can easily mod them to fire full-auto. I purchased a chip which I believe I had to solder in, and it was programmed to change the burst rates and fire FA. Mine was programmed for 1200rpm, but I think you could probably get around 1500rpm or more if you wanted that fast. I found a guy making adapters for a HPA bottle setup, and used it to get around 550fps or more with the proper regulator. The only problem at that time was that no one made a high capacity mag, and you were limited to a quick 30 shots. Someone may have developed a HC mag since then.

I also found a threaded muzzle adapter for it since it has a barrel shroud nut at the front. The threads weren't the right size to fit the can I had, so I used epoxy to attach the M4 airsoft silencer onto the adapter nut. The M4 silencer had alternating diameters of foam baffles inside of it from the factory, and that thing worked on the Drozd. It was very quiet with that on it.

I didn't think an airsoft silencer would have been illegal on an air gun, but that Drozd is long gone now anyways. Now that I think about it, I kind of miss it.

Edit: Here is a link to the boards. http://www.drozdmax.com/

 

[SHvar]

Here where I live the local laws say any projectile firing weapon (bb gun, pellet gun, bow, crossbow, firearms, etc must be fired in an area with 400 meters clear of all roads, and buildings in front of you. You should hear the parents who buy bb guns for their kids complain about that one, when the kid gets caught firing it in their yard in the direction of another house, worse yet shooting them without direct parental supervision.
To buy a bb gun/pellet gun you must be 18 by law, they are considered weapons by many state laws, mostly local laws though. Years ago I remember that 3000 bb per minute gun that was advertised in almost every magazine out there. At some time many local and state governments made fully automatic bb guns illegal.
Check your laws, start at state level and go down to local ordinances before buying them.