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So that Al Qaida doesn't have a safe haven to train and develop tactics to use against US civilians on American soil.

With the extension of this argument to other countries -- Yay! (sarcasm) -- we're going to require more recruits: making the problem worse...

Eighteen-year-olds, with a chance to avoid such issues, should do so unless they enjoy the Kool Aid...
 
Once again, pissin and moaning about the war on terror. Once again NO alternative solutions are posited.

What should we have done with Afghanistan?

How should we have dealt with Saddam?

What could we do differently with SA? Iran? Syria?

Where is the libertarian treatise with SPECIFIC real world policies that can be implemented? Not theorys of how things should be but what concrete action would they take?

The same could be said for the Dems, what is the alternative vision?
 
Amen. And let's not forget we may need to clean out a couple of other orifices while we're at it.

"Anti-war" protestors killed tens of thousands of Americans in Viet Nam, by giving the enemy leave to hope he could win in the streets of the US what he could not win on the battlefields in Southeast Asia,

They're at it again. Don't let them do to this generation of American soldiers what they did to mine.
 
I've read this thread with great interest, both as a former paratrooper in a support unit, and the father of 2 boys. In my opinion, trusting the government with the lives of my children is akin to allowing Bill Clinton to coach a girls' volleyball team. In both cases, those that trust the person in charge to make the right choice end up getting f--ked.

In raising my sons, I will counsel them to avoid military service unless this country is attacked by a foreign power. Spare me the platitudes about 9/11 because the group that did that were Saudis that belonged to an organization headed by a member of the Royal House of Saud. The sponsoring nation was invaded, the government toppled, and the remnants of the radical Islamist government is currently being chased across the hills of Afghanistan, near the Pakistani border.

Iraq is the sideshow that stole center stage. Bush the Elder capitulated to Saudi wishes to keep a buffer between them and Radically Muslim Iran. Billy Jeff was too busy selling the farm to China to give a damn, and Baby Bush needed a cause to distract the nation away from the fact that the election was a close call and Bush had no mandate. Al Qaeda shot themselves in the foot when they crashed into the WTC. Had they not done so, Bush could never have consolidated power the way that he has, The Patriot Act would have been laughed out of history, and the Homeland Security Agency would never have existed. Now, he has carte blanche to do anything, and the neo-conservatives will sing his praises, even as our Constitution is flushed down the toilet.

To me, the "War on Terror" sounds like it uses the same methodology as the wars on crime, drugs poverty, inflation, and racism. In each case, the result was the further elimination of liberty, greater encroachment on our Constitutional rights, more redistribution of wealth and in some cases, the exact opposite effect of what the government was trying to combat.

As a father, I will caution my sons that to surrender control of your life to the government is the same as selling yourself into slavery. If they elect to enlist anyway, then I will spend my days in prayer, hoping every day that they return safe and sound.
 
As a father, I will caution my sons that to surrender control of your life to the government is the same as selling yourself into slavery. If they elect to enlist anyway, then I will spend my days in prayer, hoping every day that they return safe and sound.

If you and your sons are not willing to fight for this country, you are perfectly free to move to some other country more to your liking.
 
When I went in the ad line for the Navy was its not just a job its an adventure and it was. It wasn't always the adventure I wanted but alot of times it was and I wish I had stayed in.
 
If you and your sons are not willing to fight for this country, you are perfectly free to move to some other country more to your liking.

You should endeavor to read an entire post, not just the parts you disagree with. If you had read the whole thing, you would see that I have served, and was perfectly willing to defend this nation. If this nation were attacked by a foreign power (saaaay, like China? In a few years?) I would encourage them to defend this nation and would do so myself, if called up. But to sacrifice my sons to the whim of some politician who wishes to engage in Imperialism is a price I am unwilling to pay.


Bush, at best, is a greedy expansionist with delusions of being the next Abe Lincoln and, at worst, is more evil than Clinton ever thought about being.
 
If you and your sons are not willing to fight for this country, you are perfectly free to move to some other country more to your liking.

Nevermind the fact that he has some valid points and his refusal to allow his sons to die for his country came with a qualifier that you obviously ignored. Let's just tell him to leave the country because anyone with an opinion decenting yours is un-American. Of course there isn't another amendment guaranteeing the right to protest government and free speech :rolleyes:
 
The part about recruiters is accurate and a good warning. People need to know what they are getting into and the job of a recruiter is not to dissuade you from your romantic notions about the military.

However, anyone who signs up without expecting to actually soldier during their enlistment is just deluding themselves, and they have no room to complain when they find themselves in a foreign country.
 
You should endeavor to read an entire post, not just the parts you disagree with. If you had read the whole thing, you would see that I have served, and was perfectly willing to defend this nation. If this nation were attacked by a foreign power (saaaay, like China? In a few years?) I would encourage them to defend this nation and would do so myself, if called up. But to sacrifice my sons to the whim of some politician who wishes to engage in Imperialism is a price I am unwilling to pay.

I read it all -- you've decided, all by yourself that the United States is wrong.

No different from draft dodgers in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam -- "I'd fight if I thought the country was right."

As I said, you're perfectly free to move to a country you like.
 
I'm saddened by the extent of anti-America opinion expressed here by mostly people who have not been there or done that. **** please.

I agree. This kind of crap kills American soldiers -- the enemy has his ear to the ground, and it gives him hope he can win politically what he cannot win in battle.

As I say, those who don't like this country are free to find another one.
 
Those of you who say love it or leave it. I like the Dems. Lefties, Libs what ever you call them. For one thing they get a discussion up and going they make you think, research to make sure your are correct on your point (talking to no PCers here becuse we know PCers hate to research anything becuse it usually defeats there point.) And every once in a great while there is a little something to what they say.
Debate is great but when most of the time when one side loses the argument they start name calling. I learned a while ago that when someone starts to call me names I just smile and say well I guess I won this argument. :D
But the number one reason I think they should stay is they are just so darn entertaining I crack up reading most of this stuff.

As for the military I did not enlist and now years later I wish I had. I see boys go in and less than a year later I see very mature men come out. I was one in my younger years that was anti military and when I saw what was comming out I understood how wrong I was.

One of the reason the military is having problems recruiting has noting to do with people not wanting to join it has everything to do with there requirements.
The Army is lowering its reg. to what the rest of the armed services req. You see the Army wich has had low sign ups is becuse they had some of the highest req. they are now going to allow GED in had to be High school grad. and lowering the score to the rest of the military.
so not everyone gets in my daughter wanted in the NAVY but failed the phy. becuse of astma well now she is second mate on an MSC ship that delivers supplies to the NAVY go figure. not one astma attack in 5 years. But that is the regs of the NAVY and I have to say they know best.
Of course she makes 5 to 6 times more than if she was in the NAVY but she tried 3 times and so as she say they had there chance.
Oh by the way she is one of the fastest to go from AB to 2nd Mate.
 
Those of you who say love it or leave it. I like the Dems. Lefties, Libs what ever you call them. For one thing they get a discussion up and going they make you think, research to make sure your are correct on your point (talking to no PCers here becuse we know PCers hate to research anything becuse it usually defeats there point.) And every once in a great while there is a little something to what they say.

We've been through it all before. The same tired old arguments that helped the enemy in Viet Nam and killed so many of my generation.

To those who hate this country, I say, find one you like -- and wash the sheets before you leave.
 
I love keyboard warriors, the war in Veitnam was wrong the Iraq war is wrong. Both were started by politicans who had no sons or daughters in either war. I am a Veitnam veteran, let all of the keyboard warriors tell me to ****..
 
I love keyboard warriors, the war in Veitnam was wrong the Iraq war is wrong. Both were started by politicans who had no sons or daughters in either war. I am a Veitnam veteran, let all of the keyboard warriors tell me to ****.

Thank you for your service.

Where is your alternative solution to dealing with Saddam?

Should only active and former military have a say when the application of force can be used?

Do we only let families of military have a say?
("This is the president, get Cindy Sheehan on the phone, I need her to sign off on the deployment of troops")

My opinion holds no weight because I didn't serve?
 
Those who have served in combat know the sacrifices that must be made by troops in combat. Those who served in Viet Nam know how irresponsible and self-serving people aided the enemy and caused those sacrifices to be immeasurably worse.

They say freedom isn't free -- but most of us got our freedom with no pain or sacrifice. Someone else paid the price. We therefore don't really realize how precious their gift to us is.

Be responsible in your speech and actions, and do not add to the price those now in service are paying.
 
Our problem was not Saddam/Iraq. My problem with this war is in the loss of American lifes. The billions of dollars being spent that could be used here. Our military can destory any country but after that we can not walk among them in peace for decades to come. Remember what happened in Nam after we pulled out?
 
I remember Hanoi Hanna pumping BS from Jane Fonda at us. The only reason we listened was for the entertainment value and they had the latest tunes. But at home, that stuff from movie stars who have never had it bad yet still managed to screw up their lives, had a bad effect. I got spit on in the SF airport by one of our great unwashed citizens when I arrived back in the US and just wanted to go home to see my family.
I will never understand why people think because a person has money, fame, or noteriety that their opinion is somehow better than ours. Take a close look at the skills a movie star has to have to be great. They have to be great liars - making you believe they are someone they are not and in a plot that only exists in someones mind. Entertaining - and that is what they do best.
Sorry this is disjointed but it is still a hot button for me even though I am a senior citizen now, not the young soldier of so many years ago.
 
Our problem was not Saddam/Iraq. My problem with this war is in the loss of American lifes. The billions of dollars being spent that could be used here. Our military can destory any country but after that we can not walk among them in peace for decades to come. Remember what happened in Nam after we pulled out?

The anti-war people can take full credit for that -- they created the enemy victory in Viet Nam.

And they will give the victory to terrorists in this war, if they can.

Be responsible in your speech and actions, and do not add to the price those now in service are paying.
 
Hrmmm.

I joined up at 20, and drank the kool-aid. I was a hu-ah MoFo for a while. I won't comment on my IQ (other than to say I think life might be easier if I didn't think so damn much), but when I went in I did so because I wanted to do something hard. I wanted to be one of those gun-carrying guys who jumps out of planes, so I was (except my high ASVAB meant I was levelling bubbles rather than playing gunbunny, but there you go.)

Here's my take on it:

RECRUITERS: I liked mine. My opening line was "I'm going to join the Marines unless you can get me an Airborne Infantry slot with a two year commitment and more money for college than they're offering," I knew what I was getting into, and my ASVAB score helped him satisfy some criteria. I was never lied to. However, every other soldier I served with was pissed at his recruiter because he had been lied to.

THE DRAFT: It's wrong to kidnap some kid, make him endure something like Basic/AIT, and then throw him into a combat zone to die for some cause he doesn't care about or (worse) is opposed to. It's not right.

You want to talk about defense of the homeland? That's different -- if we're invaded, we'll have no problem getting plenty of recruits (see 9/11). But I don't see the wars this nation has chosen to get involved in over the last 50 years as worth fighting, much less forcing John Doe (age 17) stright from high school into combat to get his legs blown off. The government doesn't have the legitimacy to do that, thanks.

GROWTH: Yep. Ain't nothing like Uncle Sam to make you grow up in a hurry. Much different experience than going straight from high school to college and grad school and getting caught up in all the nonsensical ideological crap. It's still crap, but the sort that makes you a better person.

THE IRAQ WAR: Iraq was an enemy of Al Quaida. Bin Ladin hated Saddam more than us.

Now, we're there, and it's a cause for Jihad, bringing people to the fight who'd never been interested in Bin Ladin's outfit, because it's so easy to slant this as the US being an "invader." Hell, the numbers I've seen state that the number of tortures and government sponsored killings in Iraq is higher now under the provisional government than it was under Saddam.

But that's OK, because we're there to make the place better.

Hint: those that are dying to fight us aren't getting their news from CNN. You should take a look at what they're being fed -- it's not any less accurate than what we're being fed, but it's got a different slant. Remember Bush's "crusade" comments?

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT: Dude, don't even go there. I'm allowed to say I think our foreign policy is 90% detrimental to the security and well being of this nation. We're terrible at meddling in other nations' problems and making things worse. We always mean well, but the law of unintended consequences always seems to bite us in the butt.

I love my country -- no doubt. I have some very serious reservations about those who have led it for the last half century though, and I have the feeling that I'm being walled in -- that more of my "inalienable rights" will disappear with each passing decade.

I don't trust those that seek to increase the power of government domestically. T.H.E.P.A.T.R.I.O.T Act, eliminating the information sharing rules between CIA and FBI, the TSA, the department of Homeland Defense, TIA, government required spying on all ISPs and telephone systems, the new driver license requirements, the use of torture to gather intelligence (though wee have the decency to deport them to another nation first), the arrest and incarceration of US Citizens to be held without trial forever if the feds require it, the Kelo and Raich (sp?) decisions, ...

It goes on. My country is turning into something I don't recognize, and those that are doing it are also asking me to support a war that they won't tell the truth about (WMDs my ass, Tora Bora fortifications my ass, Iraq involved in 9/11 my ass, ...).

They don't get a pass when it comes to sending good soldiers into harm's way. This looks to be another Vietnam, where the mission never gets completed, and we've got tens of thousands of permanently injured soldiers who got that way for nothing.

I won't support it.

And you're wrong to tell me to "get out" for saying so.

THE REAL PROBLEM: The problem is that we don't learn. I wish we'd take Washington's advice regarding foreign entanglements. Our charter says:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
It's government's role to work for us. We don't need to play world cop. We don't need to meddle in the affairs of others.

Yeah, Saddam was a bad dude. You know who should have fixed that problem? The Iraqi People. Not us. The reason we've got so many problems in the middle east right now is because we meddle rather than keeping to ourselves. If we were simply "the land of the free," where we worked to live better lives, make better stuff, play harder and better than the rest of the world, keep most of what we make, and defend to the death against anyone who would intrude, then we'd be the envy of the world. No-one would take issue with whatever we do, because it wouldn't involve them.

Mullahs in the Middle East might not like Britney Spears, but MTV is pretty easy to turn off. If they don't like the tyrants in charge in Saudi Arabia, however, then they've got to go up against US trained troops flying F16's...
 
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