Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet

[conw]

I don't disagree Loosed, but I think an argument can be made that people who are only going to take time to read the headlines should in fact stick to their local newspaper instead of posting on a private internet forum dedicated to discussing life and death decisions.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I gotta agree with the sentiment.
Don't let military swagger and bumper sticker catchphrases turn you into some agoraphobic weirdo who bristles with the most innocent interactions in public.
*ding dong*
"Dominoes!"
"Quick Katey, to the saferoom! I'll hold off the invaders here at the stairs!"

 

[Loosedhorse]

I think an argument can be made that people who are only going to take time to read the headlines should in fact stick to their local newspaper...

True. But over time, I accept more and more humanness in the people I deal with.

 

[Kleanbore]

He [(Ragnar)]incorrectly assumed people would read the body of the post.

The post contains some good advice, with which few would differ, but it concludes with "And as always, be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet".

 

[conw]

True. But over time, I accept more and more humanness in the people I deal with.

You're right. But I can only deal with so much in a day

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Color me very surprised so few people have heard that quote before.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Ragnar,

The title of your post is very bad:

Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet"

Why do you write things like that?

If you can't be bothered to read the actual content of my post, why should I expect you to read an answer to your question?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold: Color me very surprised so few people have heard that quote before.

Many of us have heard it. Larry Hickey's jury heard it.

It's catchy, it makes a point, and it is something that could be used with devastating effect in a court of law.

I am somewhat surprised that you haven't heard that before. This is by no means the first time that it has come up.

If you can't be bothered to read the actual content of my post, why should I expect you to read an answer to your question?

The first several paragraphs were excellent--but you close with the title.

No one is trying to be personally critical here, but avoiding statements such as that (and others that some people seem to consider cute) is always good advice.

 

[pbearperry]

I live by be polite but take nothing for granted.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Many of us have heard it. Larry Hickey's jury heard it.

It's catchy, it makes a point, and it is something that could be used with devastating effect in a court of law.

I am somewhat surprised that you haven't heard that before. This is by no means the first time that it has come up.

Quote:
If you can't be bothered to read the actual content of my post, why should I expect you to read an answer to your question?
The first several paragraphs were excellent--but you close with the title.

No one is trying to be personally critical here, but avoiding statements such as that (and others that some people seem to consider cute) is always good advice.

I think someone else said it best: No one is saying put on a t-shirt. It's a mindset, not a publicized mission statement. It espouses nothing but an internal attitude. Have your outwardly appearance be as courteous and professional as possible, but have your mind be constantly working on ways to defend yourself if need be. "have a plan...". The plan doesn't become reality unless reality demands it. As far as I know, juries and prosecutors can't read minds.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold: I think someone else said it best: No one is saying put on a t-shirt.

That's good.

It's a mindset, not a publicized mission statement.

Mindset is exactly what the triers of fact would be concerned about.

As far as I know, juries and prosecutors can't read minds.

Of course not.

The issue arises when something has been written down, posted, mailed, mailed, or in some cases, spoken where it can be quoted.

In Larry Hickey's case, he did none of those things. The statement was simply contained in material that had been presented to him in class!

 

[Loosedhorse]

Have your outwardly appearance be as courteous and professional as possible, but have your mind be constantly working on ways to defend yourself if need be.

This is a much better statement than the "plan to kill" one. I wouldn't mind it on a t-shirt at all.

 

[JustinJ]

To walk around thinking of how i would take out each person I meet is a way i would never want to live and well beyond what i consider practical steps to maintain a reasonable level of personal security.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by JustinJ: To walk around thinking of how i would take out each person I meet is a way i would never want to live and well beyond what i consider practical steps to maintain a reasonable level of personal security.

A great many people would agree with you.

The answer to question of whether the phrase is a good one encompasses one other factor: what people are likely to think of someone who appears to have espoused that mantra.

That phrase is specifically mentioned in a post in the THR ST&T Sticky Library in a discussion of the kinds of statements that can used to put one in a bad light after an ambiguous use of force incident.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Fair points, Kleanbore.
I think it's safe to say that situational awareness, in our age, should extend to our mouths, fingers, and webcams, way before we ever (if ever) get into a bad situation.
Condition white can now be argued to include being asleep at the wheel of your mouth, legally.

This had never occurred to me til I started living with and trying to control my PTSD. There's a stark difference between how people see the world and you have to manage your image as much in print or online as you do in person.
Open mouth is like open carry in a lot of respects. (some people are confrontational and have problems everywhere they go. Some people can pull it off because they're diplomatic and sweet as honey)

 

[JustinJ]

The answer to question of whether the phrase is a good one encompasses one other factor: what people are likely to think of someone who appears to have espoused that mantra.

That mantra conveys irrational fear and paranoia, ecspecially to the general public. And a person labeled with those terms won't be thought of to make reasonable decisions in a self defense scenario.

Personally i find that mantra to be damaging to the gun and self defense communities in general as it will be used to stereotype us all and portray our wish to own and carry guns as stemming from irrational fear.

 

[sidheshooter]

Fair points, Kleanbore.
I think it's safe to say that situational awareness, in our age, should extend to our mouths, fingers, and webcams, way before we ever (if ever) get into a bad situation.
Condition white can now be argued to include being asleep at the wheel of your mouth...

Excellent point. It is posts like this that make this thread worth 2 pages of bits n bytes.

Bottom line is that the original phrase in question started out as "gallows humor" in training-every profession has these catch phrases. The issues arise when the locker room talk leaks out from the squad room, the morgue, the halls of congress, or the high road, and into the public.

"...Have a plan.." makes a point about awareness and preparedness in a tongue-in-cheek way, but probably belongs in the same category as "...let god sort 'em out", "insured by S&W" and "forget dog, beware of owner", so far as general public usage is concerned.

JMO.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It might have some validity for an undercover operative in a hostile foreign country or something, not for we ordinary citizens minding our own business.

 

[scaatylobo]

Semantics

I agree with the OP that this is a mindset and the rest of the posts are "semantics" and just disagreement for the sake of it.

The actual plan to being polite AND having a plan to kill all whom you meet, is a survival plan.

And yes,its a cute way of putting a real idea into words,AND really I do hope none actually do as is posted [ plan on killing all whom you meet ] as that would encompass women and children.

 

[Kleanbore]

I agree with the OP that this is a mindset...

That is not in question.

...and the rest of the posts are "semantics" and just disagreement for the sake of it.

No. Most of them ware intended as prudent advice.

Consider the two trials discussed here:

Relevant excerpts:

Character Assassination

In addition to the struggle to match up limited evidence with all the dif- ferent stories being told, Attorney Messmer faced several more hurdles. .....
In addition, the defense team needed to counter the picture that Hickey’s accusers painted of him as a crazed gun nut. Initially, hoping to discourage prosecution, the defense team disclosed all the information they had about firearms classes he had completed. ...

They learned early on that they would have to take care to explain how Hickey’s training led to tactical decisions he made during the attack.

Initially, Nicolini grilled Hickey about the concepts and principles Yeager taught him, using notes and handouts from classes, and later he went over the same material with the instructor himself, discussing avoidance, de-escalation, gunfight tactics and many of Yeager’s similes, acronyms and catchy phrases – tools that the instructor used to help students remember important principles.

Alarmingly, out of context advice from instructors to “always cheat; always win,” and the axiom that one should treat every one else in a polite manner while simultaneously having a plan to kill them painted an inaccurate picture about Hickey’s outlook on life. Nicolini harvested these quotes from the training notes and handouts, and made much hay with them, especially during his closing arguments in which he described Hickey in highly inflammatory terms.

How Internet postings can lead to such a situation has been discussed here.

The relevant sections:

First, everyone should understand that if one posts in a public forum on the Internet for anyone in the world with Internet access to read, or when one sends a company email for that matter, one can have no expectation of privacy. Second, electronic postings can be and have been traced back to the originator, authenticated, and used both to facilitate further investigations and as evidence. One's computer may be seized, or subpoenas may be issued to others. Also, investigators can use search engines as well as anyone else.

This can apply to either criminal or civil proceedings or both.

The second risk involves the possible use of a statement posted on the Internet before an incident has occurred.

One way that such messages may be used is to indicate state of mind.

In the event that a person becomes involved in an incident in which the evidence supporting justification is sparse or is contradicted in part by other evidence, or an inconsistency casts doubt upon the credibility of the actor, anything that might be used to indicate that the actor had been predisposed to the use of deadly force could prove very damaging indeed.

Statements such as "anyone on my property is fair game", "in my state the law allows me to shoot anyone who...", "if he gets away he might harm someone else", "shoot the loudest one", etc., to cite a few hypothetical examples, can be discovered and used in court years after they were made.

This is not just conjecture. For a real example, consider that in a highly publicized case the defendant, who was a firearms instructor, had used training materials containing words such as “always cheat; always win,” and a statement to the effect that one should treat every one else in a polite manner while simultaneously having a plan to kill them. These statements may serve with a proper effect in an instructional setting, but taken out of context, they can be and have been used with damaging effect in a trial setting.

There are a great many other things to consider in terms of risk reducation regarding how to protect oneself in advance for what can happen after a use of force incident. A really good class, one that many attorneys recommend, is MAG-20. I recommend it for anyone who carries a gun.

It would be a good place to bring up this subject.

 

[Alaska444]

+1 Kleanbore, internet postings are public and subject to discovery. You need to exercise good judgement when posting. Thank you.

 

[msrfrog]

I gotta agree with the sentiment.
Don't let military swagger and bumper sticker catchphrases turn you into some agoraphobic weirdo who bristles with the most innocent interactions in public.
*ding dong*
"Dominoes!"
"Quick Katey, to the saferoom! I'll hold off the invaders here at the stairs!"

lol.

 

[pittspilot]

I can't find it, but I recently read a profound statement about politeness and situational awareness on a gun forum. In essence, the poster's point was not that politeness led to situational awareness, but that situational awareness led to politeness. It is only when we are keyed into another person's situation that we can truly be polite to that person. Politeness is not a means of pushing people away, but a means of interacting with them in a non- abrasive fashion.

His point was that truly being polite meant that you would rarely be surprised by people because you were well attuned to them. A side benefit was that polite people rarely draw substantial negative attention.

Ha! I should have known it was here. From Lemmycaution in another thread:

"To truly be polite, it is necessary to be aware. Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it."

Interesting what sticks with you.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I was told that as a child by my uncle a 1952 grad of the Marine corps.
I was told this again by a friend who was a Marine.
I have told this is the truth by a 28 year Marine Gunny who I work with.
So I believe it and follow it and Coopers Color Code.

 

[Nushif]

I was told that as a child by my uncle a 1952 grad of the Marine corps.
I was told this again by a friend who was a Marine.
I have told this is the truth by a 28 year Marine Gunny who I work with.

I can find you three Marines that will say almost anything.

Point is (and I don't mean to pick on you specifically) just because three people said so doesn't make it smart policy or truth.
The saying is a quippy little tough guy saying that contains a kernel of truth, encapsulated in the simple word situational awareness. But to model your self defense after the notion of potentially killing everyone you see ... Not sure what that says about your state of mind, tbh.