Beeremangum

[waidmann]

Anyone familiar with this maker? I am assuming it is Dutch. It is on a single shot muzzleloading pistol's lock. GUM is also stamped on the barrel and wood. There are proofs but not any I find in standard references. There is a VR cipher but it is stipled not stamped, looks questionable. The bore is smooth about 16ga. and apparently it takes musket caps.

Please don't razz me about pictures, I'm not in possession. Any ideas about a fair price, good wood, white metal, appears shootable.

 

[Jim K]

A questionable "VR" (Victoria Regina?) mark accompanied by some meaningless words usually means a gun made in Asia around the Khyber pass, though it could be from somewhere else. Since such guns are considered as antiques or collectibles, many GIs in that area have been able to bring them back and they turn up fairly often.

I could be wrong, of course, but I won't use the "P" word.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

Thanks Jim, yeah that VR, and somewhat crudely stippled and out of proportion. Beereman is apparently a Dutch and Afrikaans surname. GUM has some meaning. The other stampings are crisp, deep, professional looking. I neglected to include: the lock is dated 1855.

The proofs also have an "official" look but I have not been able to find them in standard references, nor can I find any mention of Netherlands proofs. They are crowned letters: G,K and an uncrowned F.

It just doesn't have that phony feel to it with of course the VR exception. Which I tend to think was applied by some local craftsman for reasons unknown. I am not read into Boer-British conflict, but my memories of it include Churchill and Mausers not this era.

Thanks for responding.

 

[Jim K]

If you are thinking that the name on the lockplate might be the owner, I think it is unlikely. It could be the maker of the gun or of the lock, but the fake VR tends to cast doubt on the rest of the gun.

As always, pictures would help.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

No I believe it to be a manufacturers and GUM to be something added to a surname in a Germanic usage. I'll work on photos, and appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Jim K]

I can't claim to be an expert in German, but I have never heard of "gum" having any such use or meaning in that language. I still think it is nonsense lettering, put on to simulate the markings on some European gun.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

No its not German. Having dabbled in genealogy I found hits for Beereman in England, South Africa and Holland. I have a bit of facility auf Deutsch but absolutely none in Dutch. Nor do I have any exposure other than the web with native work.

I have read your posts; respect your responses. Hope to have some pics to view in the near future.

 

[vaupet]

I checked on Beereman via Google but all I found are the same references in England, Holland and South Africa. None of them are in any way linked to gun or arms in general
(Dutch is my native and i'm knowledgeable in german, french and a little bit of english)
Sorry I couldn't be of any more help.

Peter

 

[waidmann]

1st pic

I'll have to get better but.............

 

[waidmann]

Vaupet, I guess that makes you the man. Do you have a source for anyinformation regarding Dutch proof marks? I have yet to see any. Similarly does GUM have any meaning?

I suspect Jim's opinion is on the mark but one likes to exhaust the possibilities.

 

[vaupet]

Hi,
Of the picture I would think the pistol is Britisch. They made the Land-Pattern flintlock until about 1820 and then the land pattern and sea pattern cap-pistol starting about 182, as a sort off government issued pistol to armed forces and customs.

Also, the rather simple manufacture and wood (no ornaments whatsoever) confirm the thesis of a government gun.

tipically for these is the mount of the loading stick wich swivels around at the end of the barrel.

This all is very consistent with the year (1855?), the VR (Victoria Regina) and presumably the crown, which seems very much like the britisch crown.

I can't find a beereman as manufacturer on any of my sources

You got me interested, Waidman

greetings

Peter

http://www.militaryheritage.com/pistol6.htm
http://www.oldguns.co.uk/4.html

 

[waidmann]

Peter, the opinion Jim offers is that it is a native (e.g. Pakistani, Kyber Pass area) copy of the British pattern. The VR cypher is very crude, the proofs can't be identified, nor can GUM. On close inspection the letters are individually stamped (try 200% magnification on the photograph). Unless someone can offer some other reasonable information, Jim's explanation rules. Thanks for the links.

Waidmanns Heil!

 

[Jim K]

That sure looks English to me. In fact, it looks almost exactly like a Model 1842 cavalry pistol. But the trouble is that word "almost". The lockplate with the front screw doesn't jibe, the ramrod head doesn't look right and there is no swivel in the trigger guard. But I doubt very much it is continental, from Holland or any other country; it is just too English. It might be a good copy, of course, though I think my first guess was wrong. If it is a Darra Pass product, it is one of the best I have seen.

Another possibility is that it was a pistol made for the "volunteers" and, like "volunteer" muskets, almost like the service issue. Sounds good, but that marking doesn't fit anything I know or have been able to find out.

Mr. Waidman, can you get good closeups of the lockplate markings and of any other marks on the gun?

Jim

 

[vaupet]

Worksmanship seems to good to be native. (hinges around the loading stick)

Blowing up the foto doesn't work.

Also, if that date is 1855 we must remember that the english started issuing cap-fire single action revolvers as of 1849-1850, some it might be some end of production example presented as a gift to a Beereman.

Just guessing

Peter

 

[waidmann]

Beeremann photos

Jim & Peter,
I know, it does not have that piece of crap look or feel to it. In fact it may yet get loaded and fired (using some judgement and a long cord).

The plan, if the sun ever shines on Tennessee is to darken the markings and try my wife's Nikon in daylight. I suppose if this keeps up I'll get her a macro lens next birthday.

Don't hold your breath, if this takes some time, I'll post a new Part II thread.

Regards to you both,
Bill (waidmann)

 

[waidmann]

British East India Company

Bingo!

 

[Jim K]

I agree, and that one does have the front lockplate screw that the standard Model 1842 doesn't. So we have a possible EIC pistol that is marked in an odd way. A step forward anyway, even if it doesn't explain the marking.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

These pics come from a manufacturer overseas. They state the original lockplates were marked EIC only. Whether or not an original manufacturer is the source of this debatable.

I took the gun down and there is no other marking under the barrel or behind the lockplate.

I'll have to conceed the native workshop option barring other information. As for what they copied.............