Benefits of the revolver

[MrBorland]

It has been stated by people smarter than I that defensive revolvers should be rendered DAO. The range babes will kick sand in your face if you fire your DA revolver single action. Hence, revolver triggers suck. Some DA triggers suck less than others but next to a well executed 1911 they all suck. I've been working on my double action fu but the results are not encouraging.

I think Hawk and I have discussed this in a recent thread, but lemme reiterate: I do agree that there's a lot of merit in rendering a defense revolver DAO, but to say "revolver triggers suck" is to compare them directly to a SA trigger, which is comparing apples to oranges. To me, one's simply a DA trigger, and the other, SA. Whether DA or SA, one can have a great 'smith-tuned trigger or a lousy, gritty and creepy trigger. Whatever the platform, I'll take a "great 'smith-tuned" trigger over one that's "lousy, gritty and creepy" anyday. Besides, if DA triggers inherently suck, one couldn't be as accurate as when shooting SA, and this certainly hasn't been my experience.

As to the benefits of a revolver, I just flat-out like 'em. Not a thing in the world wrong with a semi, and I'll likely buy a BHP, 1911 or M&P9 at some point, but I simply enjoy shooting revolvers. I like their elegance and historical relevance. To me, there's a certain zen to a DA trigger, and it just makes the gun feel alive in my hand.

 

[tube_ee]

The debate that never dies...

But in the discussion of simplicity for the non-shooter, there's no doubt that the DA wheelgun reigns supreme over every other firearm ever invented.

Start with loaded firearms, in the typical, loaded-but-at-rest condition for that gun.

Have every type you can think of.

Grab someone who's never shot a gun.

With no instruction, which gun is going to allow such a person to get off a shot?

It's the DA revolver. Pull trigger, "BANG!!" Not even a SxS or O/U shotgun is simpler, they both have safeties that would typically be in the "safe" position.

Granted, that's an intentionally extreme example. Where it is illustrative of the point is that, under stress, we tend to forget things. With the DA wheelie, there's only one thing to remember, and it happens to be the one thing that every gun requires to cause a shot to happen... pull the trigger.

That's it. Nothing else is needed.

For inherent safety and ease of manipulation under stress, the DA revolver has never been equaled, let alone exceeded. Certainly, the limited ammo capacity of the DA revolver, and the relative weakness of any handgun compared to a rifle or shotgun, are valid (albeit easily overstated in the context of civilian defensive use) points. But on the basic question, "which gun would I want in my hand if I was scared out of my mind and had to get a shot off NOW!!", the DA revolver stands alone.

There might be a counter-example out there, but I'm not aware of it.

--Shannon

 

[Hawk]

I think Hawk and I have discussed this in a recent thread

Indeed we have.

My carry piece is a Dawson-tuned STI and all my practice until very recently has been with that particular item. I've grown accustomed, some might say "dependent", on that trigger.

In the context of a carry gun, no revolver has a chance of matching it. Well, maybe a Mateba, but I'm not at all sure of that. My early practice with DA revolvers was laughable and has grown to be merely "sad". It's great that others can come to grips with a DA trigger but I'm not (at least yet) one of them.

If the rules of engagement state "DA only for revolvers", I'll stick with the STI. Should that ever change, I expect it will be thousands of rounds, hundreds of dollars and lots of time.

...not that trying isn't fun. But I can't take the notion of "defensive revolver" seriously for so long as that gawdawful trigger remains. I hasten to add that I'm working my DA-fu with a pair of Pythons - if something is available that's a lot better, let me know and I'll snag one of whatever it is.

Having trigger-related OCD is a terrible affliction.

 

[zinj]

I'm not sure where you're getting this. You don't have to display the firearm to the bad guy if he's trying to kill you. Indeed you don't have to tell him you're armed or give him a chance to put his arms up.

I mean if someone is far enough away to draw the gun and merely fires through their pocket they may shoot someone who would otherwise have retreated had they known the target was prepared to react with deadly force.

It would also would be easy for someone in a less than clear-cut shooting to have the fact that they shot through their pocket used as an implication that they shot first (since the gun was concealed when it was fired).

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

 

[Phydeaux642]

The benefit for me is they put a big ol' smile on my face, and I need that big ol' smile.

____________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

 

[MrBorland]

My carry piece is a Dawson-tuned STI and all my practice until very recently has been with that particular item. I've grown accustomed, some might say "dependent", on that trigger.

Well, now I understand. Yep - you're ruined.

Seriously, though, it sounds like you've got a very nice rig. Right now, all my triggers are stock, and would suck by comparison. But most would, too. After lots of dry firing and reading Cunningham's trigger articles, I realized mine (and very likely all stock revolvers) could use some real improvement. I'm on the wait list for a good action job, but in the meantime, I make do, and don't do too badly. My only concern is exactly what you articulated - once I get used to a great trigger, everything else will suck and I'll only be able to shoot this gun well. One could have worse troubles, I suppose.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/good_trigger.html
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/action_performance.html
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/do_you_need_a_trigger_job.html

 

[Hawk]

Cunningham isn't only what I take to be a revolver magician; he manages to answer my noob emails in a helpful fashion as well. I didn’t get on the waiting list as nine months away seems like a long time right now although he doesn't need the revolver until the end of the waiting period.

I'll probably jump on board as soon as I can get a better basic understanding of why double action is proving so frustrating. The groups have settled down to "mediocre" (a vast improvement) but the DA groups remain offset from the SA groups. The fact that I can’t see any deflection when dry firing is particularly maddening – it must be there but my inability to see it is getting on my last nerve. I'm lacking the frame of reference he speaks of in the last article linked.

But the voyage is fun.

Make sure to let us know how yours works out. How much longer before you send it in?

 

[MrBorland]

It's even worse - his original wait was 7-9 months, but he recently said he's backlogged 2-3 months beyond that. Good for him that business is good. And yes, he's very helpful. Between 'smithing, his blog, answering emails, and a personal life, he must not get much sleep. With the extended wait, I hope to send mine off by March.

If you know of someone who's a really good revolver shooter, you might have them shoot your gun, just to be sure there's nothing wrong with it. Pythons, eh? Never shot one myself - they have a reputation for very smooth actions, but also for being a bit finicky. Maybe it just needs the timing adjusted or a re-crowning. If the revolve specialist can't shoot it either, it may be time to send it to 'smith. If yo don't want to wait a year, I'm sure there are other revolver specialists available. THR's own Matt Almeda, for instance. Don't know if he works on Colts.

Ok, time to gve the thread back to the OP

http://www.revolverarmorer.com/

 

[Brasso]

If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases. Close your eyes, spin the cylinder, and hope no one is watching when you jerk the trigger off the barn door on that used primer. It's actually embarassing, even with no one else around, to see how bad you are really flinching.

Seriously, it's a great way to improve your trigger control.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases.

That's good advice, whether you're shooting DA or SA.

 

[ravencon]

Still at most only 5-6 shots. Give me my 17 every time
__________________
"It's a mall ninja thing, you wouldn't understand."

Spoken like a true Mall Nija! Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Hawk]

If you're having trouble shooting DA with a revolver and can't figure out why, the best thing to do is randomly load two live rounds with 4 empty cases. Close your eyes, spin the cylinder, and hope no one is watching when you jerk the trigger off the barn door on that used primer. It's actually embarassing, even with no one else around, to see how bad you are really flinching.

Good advice. I'll give myself a little pat on the back for taking it months ago. Flinching isn't the problem this time although that technique was helpful a while back with a SA .44 Mag. A 6" barrel Python just doesn't have much in the way of recoil with 158 grain UMC yellow box or my handloads that are in the UMC "ballpark". Buffalo Bore rhino rounds would no doubt be different.

FWIW, the range people won't stroke out if you keep your eyes open but simply stare at the target while giving the cylinder a little twist before closing. The eyes closed technique might get me some unwanted attention.

I have another positive observation on revolvers: their character can completely transform by dinking about with grips. I recently snagged a (much) used 66-1 that came with wood grips similar to those on a model 57. A previous (over)used 66-2 has those itty-bitty wood round bottom grips and it's like the two firearms are from different planets.

I suspect the "empty chamber drill" will be needed if I shoot the 66-2 with the pixie grips much - 357s out of that guy hurt.

I've never handled one of the semis with the interchangable backstraps but I can't picture it mutating as thoroughly as the S&W 66 does through grip changes.

As nasty as that 66 with the doll-house grips is, I can only stand in awe of you folks that shoot 357s out of one of those teensy scandium whatsis.

 

[mavracer]

I question the value of this tactic. First of all, the gun cannot be aimed with the sights, and pointing would be hindered by the garment constricting movement.

Shooting inside youer pocket is a questionable tactic to me, and the assumption that somehow a hammerless revolver can be shot repeatedly ignores the fact that the cylinder may not rotate if wrapped in cloth.

you won't question the tactic once you try it and have sombody walk up to you in a dark parking lot(remeber you don't know if he's a mugger or just wants a light) and you have your hands in the pocket of your hoodie on your centennial frame.also once you fire a 38+p through your pocket the resulting hole will not have any cloth in it to get stuck in the cylinder.you can ask my buddie the OU fan about his OU hoodie. see mavracer is a K-State fan.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

you won't question the tactic once you try it and have sombody walk up to you in a dark parking lot(remeber you don't know if he's a mugger or just wants a light) and you have your hands in the pocket of your hoodie on your centennial frame.

Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

 

[Hawk]

Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

Concur.

An abject failure of situational awareness is a poor recommendation for far-fetched tactics. Even in a similar scenario it's hard to imagine how a "pocket shot" would be preferable to backpedaling like a demon while drawing. I guess one's back could be against a wall but that would graduate the situational awareness failure from merely "abject" to "Cosmic".

I will confess to a certain curiousity whether such a scenario ever played itself out outside a hollywood studio or someone's imagination and, if so, if anything was wounded apart from one's wardrobe. If so, was a second shot needed and how'd that work out?

 

[mavracer]

Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

What you confront everybody in a dark parking lot,hope you don't run into yourself.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As I have said many times, most disasters occur because people plan to have disasters. And going into a dark parking lot with both hands in your hoodie, then allowing an unidentified person to get close to you is as good a plan for a disaster as I've ever heard.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

What you confront everybody in a dark parking lot,hope you don't run into yourself.

So where is this crowded, dark parking lot?

 

[FerFAL]

Whenever I see something out of place or a stranger closing in as I’m entering the house/taking out the garbage/etc, I draw my gun and keep it pressed against the upper thigh, hiding it behind the hip. It’s hard to tell you have a gun this way, specially at night, and I’d rather have my gun in hand until the possible threat is over, rather than betting on some 0.5 second draw or pocket shot.

FerFAL

 

[BikerRN]

Whenever I see something out of place or a stranger closing in as I’m entering the house/taking out the garbage/etc, I draw my gun and keep it pressed against the upper thigh, hiding it behind the hip. It’s hard to tell you have a gun this way, specially at night, and I’d rather have my gun in hand until the possible threat is over, rather than betting on some 0.5 second draw or pocket shot.

FerFAL

I too would rather have a gun in my hand when danger comes. That is why I pocket carry my BUG.

As far as having the gun out during an unknown situation, that is a quick ticket to jail in most American communities. Unless you are justified in shooting you are most likely not justified in drawing the gun. The rules are different for On-Duty LEO's but I have to follow the same rules Non-LEO's do when I'm Off-Duty.

I like Revolvers, and I do not hide that fact. Most situations for Non-LEO's are resolved with less than three shots fired at three yards and less per the FBI statistics that I read. As a "Defensive Weapon" the Revolver is hard to beat, IMHO. As a "Tactical" or "Offensive" weapon any handgun sucks.

Biker

 

[mavracer]

So where is this crowded, dark parking lot?

do you have to take every thing out of context.cool let me try.

Actually, I'd question the wisdom of walkiing around alone in a dark parking lot with my hands in my hoodie, and my indecision in allowing someone to get that close to me before making him declare his intentions.

so you break the law by brandishing your firearm every time someone approches you.great thats how the stonycreek shooting started.

 

[mavracer]

I will confess to a certain curiousity whether such a scenario ever played itself out outside a hollywood studio or someone's imagination and, if so, if anything was wounded apart from one's wardrobe. If so, was a second shot needed and how'd that work out?

actually while no shooting occured I have had sombody waiting outside gander moutain follow me across the street into the parking garage. I turned and asked if I could help him ( he was still 15 feet away) he said somthing about the people at gander not speaking spanish and if I could help him.(he spoke very broken english and I didn't understand what he wanted,not even sure if he was on the level ) I said I don't speak spanish and I couldn't help him and kinda half turned and started to walk away never taking my eyes off him, he turned and walked back across the street.the whole time my 442 was in my hand in my hoodie pocket ready to react(remeber we are not cops we are only allowed to defend ourselves) either by draw and retreat or shoot from where it was.now tell me how you handle that situation with IWB/OWB. Because you put your hand on your gun its brandishing which is illegal in most places and a good way to start trouble when all the off duty cop wanted was a light for instance.and as to your concern about more than one shot after the first shot you can push the gun through the hole the muzzle blast makes and if you have CT the next shot is easy.

 

[vynx]

Here is another benefit of the revolver.

In rimfire they definetly jam less and you get a second strike.

In California where we are legislated to 10 rounds in the magazine I like the taurus 94 9 shot .22 LR. It never jams, is stainless, lightweight and a breeze to shoot. Why get a semi that has 2 more rounds and is less reliable and those rimfire magazines can be a pain to load. Speedloaders drop right in the revolver.

It is escpecially nice for non-gunners to try first time.

Not a self defense choice for me but still a nice revolver.

 

[lawboy]

revolvers have no univeral advantage over semis. Semis have no universal advantage over revolvers. The varioius attributes of each type MIGHT be an advantage depending on the situation. Other than that, people decide which they like and which they want to become proficient with and that is all there is too it. My choice for home defense and concealed carry has been a revolver 99% of the time.

My perspective on a point raised in this interesting thread:

It is true some semis can be fired more quickly than most revolvers. HOWEVER, for the vast majority of shooters the rate of accurate fire is not appreciately increased by use of a semi. A graphic example of this is watching competitors at an IDPA or similar action-style match. Egos being what they are, most people blaze through the cardboard silhouette targets, shooting as fast as they can get a snap sight picture and many not even bothering to use the sights. BUT, when they get to the steel plate targets, NEARLY EVERY SINGLE SHOOTER WILL SLOW DOWN. Why? because on the paper targets, neither the shooter nor the onlookers can tell whether the bullets are striking in the A zone, outside the scoring areas or off the paper entirely as the shooter moves through the course. They only find out afterwards. So, the shooter's ego tells him to shoot fast for a quick time and to look good. BUT, on the steel targets that give instant visual and auditory confirmation of a hit or miss at each shot, the shooter knows everyone will instantly know whether he hit or missed every time he pulls the trigger so in order to look good and save his ego, he has to get the hits. He cannot doing it with the mad dash, inaccurate technique used on the paper target so HE SLOWS DOWN ON THE STEEL TO GET THE HITS. Semi shooters are not immune from this. If you study the split times of most shooters in paper vs. steel targets you will see that ON STEEL, SEMI SHOOTERS AND REVOLVER SHOOTERS OF SIMILAR HIT RATIOS WHO ARE RANKED SIMILARLY HAVE SIMILAR SPLIT TIMES. I compete in IDPA. I videotape every match I attend and we typically have 80-100 shooters per match. I watch the tapes over and over at home, studying myself and other shooters. Without a doubt, the limiting factor for most shooters in accurate, fast fire is not action type, it is reacquiring sight picture and tracking. This is obvious when watching a shooter on paper and then steel because most of them don't even bother to confirm sight picture on paper but they do take that time on steel due to either egos.

 

[lawboy]

One other observation. For those finding it hard to get good hits with a revolver or any other gun, try this: Watch the front sight.
I know, I know, it is a bit elemental in terms of advice, but there is something more too it. You must watch the front sight THE ENTIRE TIME. I instruct revolver and semi shooters on a weekly basis as a range officer. A very common problem is shooters closing their eyes or taking their eyes off the sights right before they complete the trigger stroke. There are a number of problems going on here. First, if they are closing their eyes consistently at this time, it means they know when the gun is going to fire and thus are yanking the trigger and not slowly adding pressure with a squeeze. Second, they are anticipating the recoil and blast and are closing their eyes in an attempt to avoid one or both. Third, both the yank and the closing of the eyes means the shot will not be on target. By forcing yourself to watch that front sight until it disappears upward with the recoiling muzzle, then watching it reappear as the gun comes down, and NEVER CLOSING YOUR EYES OR TAKING THEM OFF THE SPOT WHERE THE SIGHT WAS, you will almost automatically stop yanking the trigger and will get better hits. It is a mental game much more than a physical game. You have to want the hits more than you want to be sensorily comfortable. Deal with the noise and sudden motion of the gun towards your face. You have to stop caring about the sensory discomfort and start caring about hitting what you aim at. Even if the gun comes back and hits you in the face, stop giving a damn and watch that sight and get the hit!