Beretta 92 incident - powder blast in my face

[shooter1]

Couldn't tell from the picture, but I'm sure someone would have noticed if the primer was pierced. With my not so good eyes, and not being able to enlarge the picture enough to really get a good view of the primer, can't tell for sure.
str1

 

[kokapelli]

I agree that what you stated is what went wrong, but I wish Winchester would have stated that as a possibility instead of saying they didn't find anything wrong. What I was looking for was an explanation from them.

Companies never accept responsibility or admit to product failure for legal reasons.

If Winchester admitted product failure it leaves them open to a lawsuit.

 

[IMtheNRA]

I had the same experience about fifteen years ago, except without the blood.

I was shooting my 9mm Hi Power, using WWB ammo, which was before I got into reloading.

I heard a weaker than expected bang, more of a very loud "pop", and suddenly, my face got peppered with a huge amount of unburnt powder. The bullet had gone out of the barrel, and I don't remember whether or not the case was ejected. The case looked heavily scorched, like the one in your photo.

I thought the case was undercharged, or the neck tension was weak and unable to hold pressure which lead to incomplete ignition.

 

[JohnKSa]

It wasn't a hot round.
It was a very light load.

My thoughts precisely. Nothing points to overpressure, everything points to underpressure.

If it ever happens again, be sure to check the bore to make sure the bullet made it all the way out of the barrel before you continue shooting.

 

[GLOOB]

So OP, you gave up your firearm for a number of weeks and sold your ammo back to Winchester, even though your gun was not damaged and you were not seriously injured. Because you wanted to hear Winchester tell you what RC explained less than an hour after your original post?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but yes, RC had it correct the first time. As others have mentioned, the burn marks on the casing give it away. I had a similar thing happen a few years ago with Winchester .45 Colt cowboy loads.

I was shooting them out of a 5" 460 magnum. They were hardly even causing the big revolver to recoil, but blowing milk jugs apart just the same. I handed the gun to a friend so she could shoot it, and she pulled the trigger. The gun did not fire properly, and did not recoil. Well, the load was so lightly charged (you do expect light loadings in cowboy loads) that all it did was push a lead bullet
Into the barrel and left me with a squib. The cartridge hissed and spat out smoke from the barrel cylinder gap. Fortunately that and the recoil shield directed the gasses and unburned powder to the sides and not back at my friend. It left strange brass colored lightning shaped marked on the forcing cone and cylinder face.

I notified Winchester that they may have a bad lot of ammo and they did the same thing as with you. They requested the ammo and gun. Then they sent the gun off to S&W for inspection. It came back several weeks later no worse for wear. They sent me vouchers for some free ammo, but offered no explanation as to the cause, but it was definitely from an undercharged or uncharged load.

I think the only way they would offer an explanation to you is if there was something found wrong with your gun so they could place the blame on the gun maker, or try to place the blame on you by saying the gun was not properly maintained. A corporation would never admit freely to a defective product, especially if it resulted in an injury, lest they open themselves up to legal action.

Glad you weren't blinded man. This could have turned out much worse.

 

[Miked7762]

A light powder charge didn't expand the case enough to seal the chamber.

Wouldn't the primer be protruding in that case? A charge too light to expand the case would certainly not be able to seat back the primer.

 

[clutch]

Was the WWB using ball or flake powder? I'm trying to understand how the powder got past a case that is a semi close fit to chamber as loaded.

Oh, maybe it short stroked? Is that it? Just trying to learn.

 

[ljnowell]

Wouldn't the primer be protruding in that case? A charge too light to expand the case would certainly not be able to seat back the primer.

Not necessarily. I load mouse fart 38s for bullseye practice and they scorch the crap out if the case due to low pressure, like well under 10kpsi. The primers all seat. In my experience if it has enough to get the bullet out of the barrel usually it's enough to reseat the primer, of course there will be exceptions.

 

[rcmodel]

Wouldn't the primer be protruding in that case? A charge too light to expand the case would certainly not be able to seat back the primer.

Not necessarily.

For the primer to back out, there has to be excess headspace.
If the case length & chamber were over-lapping in manufacturing tolerances, there wasn't room for it to back out.

Then again, the 9mm is a tapered case.
So if the primer did back out, the tapered case that didn't expand enough to seal the chamber, most certainly didn't expand enough to grip the chamber and keep the case from blowing back to re-seat the primer.

Even after most of the pressure leaked out past the case well into & after the ignition pressure curve started.

rc

 

[GLOOB]

I think the only way they would offer an explanation to you is if there was something found wrong with your gun so they could place the blame on the gun maker

Well, it certainly goes along with this theory that they would ask you to send them the firearm and all remaining ammunition. That gives them all of the physical evidence.

 

[shooter1]

Well, it certainly goes along with this theory that they would ask you to send them the firearm and all remaining ammunition. That gives them all of the physical evidence.

Absolutely!!
No way would I have sent the gun to them. If there was no injury and no damage, I'd likely let the buy the ammo back.
str1

 

[5-SHOTS]

It was a light round and/or for some reason (wet powder?) some of the powder didn't burn completly and hitted you in the face when the pistol opened. The recoil was so light that the case didn't hit the ejector and the pistol chambered the spent case again instead of a fresh cartridge. That's what I think it happened.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

That gives them all of the physical evidence.

Exactly. In my case, I photographed the gun and documented everything before sending the gun in.

 

[Drail]

Winchester really needs to clean up their act. Their QC has gone right down the drain in a desperate effort to meet the orders that they have to get out the door. Especially with their shotshells.

 

[WestKentucky]

I believe RC is right but pic 3 does show signs of a case failure. Without a better way to see the ammo (shattered phone screen is all I have got) it's very hard to say. I shoot extremely light 38spl loads and had this a lot until I cranked it back up a bit, but I have had splits act very much the same. One thing I do know though is that beretta makes a quality gun so I fully expect it to take a beating from and loads, especially since 9mm is so hard to overload to a dangerous point.

 

[wally]

I agree pic #3 looks like a crack in the brass. I'd say defective brass and hot gas to the face.

I got tired of similar with Remington Golden Bullet bulk pack blowing rims and doing similar so I quit buying it years ago (well before the .22lr ammo drought)

It happens. Its why we *always* wear eye protection when shooting.

Are you saying that is not a split at the left side bottom 1/3rd of the case right at the border of the scorch mark?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think that might just be a trick of the light gents, unless the OP can shed light on that mark.

But he did say in his OP

3) The shape of the spent case looked normal (no bulges or anything)

 

[ljnowell]

I agree pic #3 looks like a crack in the brass. I'd say defective brass and hot gas to the face.

I got tired of similar with Remington Golden Bullet bulk pack blowing rims and doing similar so I quit buying it years ago (well before the .22lr ammo drought)

It happens. Its why we *always* wear eye protection when shooting.

Are you saying that is not a split at the left side bottom 1/3rd of the case right at the border of the scorch mark?

It looks to me like you can see a mark on the rim also in line with what you are talking about. To me that looks like the mark left from the slide stripping the round off the top of the magazine. My Glock does the same thing.

 

[rcmodel]

Just so you know, these are all Federal 9mm cases that cracked the first time they were reloaded & fired.
Shot in a S&W Model 39.

I didn't even know it until I was picking them up off the ground.
No smoke, no fire & brimstone hitting me in the face, no nothing to indicate they were cracking.

If in fact there is a crack showing midway up the case in the OP's 3rd. photo?
He surely would have seen it and mentioned it?
And I seriously doubt it caused his problem if it is a crack in that location anyway.

It would still have sealed the chamber anyway if the pressure was where it should have been to expand the case.



rc

 

[lowelldogger]

So OP, you gave up your firearm for a number of weeks and sold your ammo back to Winchester, even though your gun was not damaged and you were not seriously injured. Because you wanted to hear Winchester tell you what RC explained less than an hour after your original post?

I wanted to follow up and let Winchester know what was going on so potential production problems could be found. If having the pistol helps them do that I'm fine with it. I was also curious to see how they would handle the case in general. I have two Beretta 92's and plenty other pistols to keep me busy so losing one for a month doesn't matter much to me as long as I get it back the way I sent it

 

[lowelldogger]

There was no cracking. I looked it over very closely with the magnifying glass.

 

[lowelldogger]

I wanted to follow up and let Winchester know what was going on so potential production problems could be found. If having the pistol helps them do that I'm fine with it. I was also curious to see how they would handle the case in general. I have two Beretta 92's and plenty other pistols to keep me busy so losing one for a month doesn't matter much to me as long as I get it back the way I sent it

Also, keep in mind they told me they were forwarding the pistol to Beretta when they were done with it. I don't think Beretta will be eager to say "yeah the gun is messed up"

 

[wally]

Whatever the cause, failures do happen, so now you understand why we *always* wear eye protection when shooting!

 

[Robert101]

Did I understand that you sent your pistol to Winchester for them to evaluate their ammo?