Beretta Tomcat, cannot remove retention pin to access firing pin

[Radom Guy]

I have an old Beretta Tomcat (manufactured in 1997, I bought it used). The firing pin is broken. The retainer pin in the slide that holds it in place is approximately 1mm diameter (approximately 0.040"). I do not have a 1mm punch. I have tried thin drill bits, grinding down the diameter of a 1/32" punch, then heating the respective pins/drill bit to red hot over a flame and dropping them in salt water to harden them. They still break or bend, regardless of how hard I tap them down (too light does not move the retainer pin obviously). I would gladly buy a tempered 1mm punch individually or in a set if I knew that what I was buying would work.

One other thing I actually tried was taking a brand new Beretta replacement retainer pin and pushing the existing pin with it. The brand new retainer pin started bending almost immediately, so I did not continue that route.

I tried heating the slide where the retainer pin is with a propane torch, but I did not get the slide and retainer pin red hot, as I am concerned about the slide metal and its finish becoming damaged. Perhaps I do not need to worry about that, I do not know. The Tomcat being an open top slide microcompact gun is very thin for about half the length of it. I even get nervous putting it in a vise, but I have rubber type vise jaw protectors on the vise jaws. Putting it in a vise is a minor issue that I can resolve, though.

Any tips to do this successfully on my own? The nearest gunsmiths that I know are about a half hour drive out of my way, and time is extremely tight. Plus, I would like to do it myself anyway, as you all understand.

This whole thing is pretty maddening, to feel beaten by something so tiny!!

It may take me a little time to reply to folks or give your comments a thumbs up, but I will definitely be reading them.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Clemson]

Send it to Beretta. Good service but slow.

 

[Radom Guy]

Send it to Beretta. Good service but slow.

Well, I wrote this post seeking help to do it myself. I am sure the local gunsmith could do it cheaper than Beretta, with less hassle than shipping, successfully, and probably quicker. I have the replacement parts already too. But thanks for reading my post.

 

[Blue68f100]

When it comes to punches you generally get what you pay for. Sterret are my favorites but Brownells has some that have replacable tips that have been good on really hard to remove pins

https://www.brownells.com/tools-cle...nsmith-replaceable-pin-punch-set-with-2-pins/

They have 3 different size of pins if I recall.

Should add to find what they call a "Starter punch". These have very short pins (1/3"-3/8") so they are not likely to bend.

 

[a5werkes]

I authored a Manual on the Beretta Bobcat 21.
I recall using Brownells short length hardened starter punches with the slide held firm in a proper vise. Kano-Kroil pre-treatment may be a benefit. This info may be of assistance.

 

[Radom Guy]

When it comes to punches you generally get what you pay for. Sterret are my favorites but Brownells has some that have replacable tips that have been good on really hard to remove pins

https://www.brownells.com/tools-cle...nsmith-replaceable-pin-punch-set-with-2-pins/

They have 3 different size of pins if I recall.

Should add to find what they call a "Starter punch". These have very short pins (1/3"-3/8") so they are not likely to bend.

I authored a Manual on the Beretta Bobcat 21.
I recall using Brownells short length hardened starter punches with the slide held firm in a proper vise. Kano-Kroil pre-treatment may be a benefit. This info may be of assistance.


View attachment 1198046View attachment 1198047View attachment 1198048View attachment 1198050View attachment 1198052

Those replaceable pin type punches look great. Unfortunately I cannot find the replacement pins that are used with them on Brownells website. Does anyone happen to have a link to the replacement pins to be used with those punches? I searched Brownells and found 94 products but nothing I found was what I was looking for.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Lo-Profile]

I would soak it in kroil or other penetration oil for a while.
Small punches are a pita to work with sometimes. Seems they bend way to easy

 

[a5werkes]

As an amateur, toiling in the vineyards of gunsmith misery over the years I have learned the from the school of hard-knocks that one can never have enough small really hard tipped punches for the the task at hand.

So I have assembled a pretty good inventory of tapered & parallel short hardened punches, modified & fabricated as needed, usually tempered & hardened myself to specifications, to defeat the enemy that is the factory pin.

I have observed that one of the most important aspects of liberating a pin is a secure fixation in a big vise, precision sized punch for the task and pre-meditated lubrication of said pin. A nice bench block has not been appreciated as a suitable substitute for a nice vise.

A small sample of the inventory. The short shaft items were amputated from standard mfg. parallel punches and then hardened / tempered to suit. The tapered pins are really the work horse for me, just moving any pin a few millimeters to follow on with a parallel punch, successful removal usually followed.

 

[Radom Guy]

As an amateur, toiling in the vineyards of gunsmith misery over the years I have learned the from the school of hard-knocks that one can never have enough small really hard tipped punches for the the task at hand.

So I have assembled a pretty good inventory of tapered & parallel short hardened punches, modified & fabricated as needed, usually tempered & hardened myself to specifications, to defeat the enemy that is the factory pin.

I have observed that one of the most important aspects of liberating a pin is a secure fixation in a big vise, precision sized punch for the task and pre-meditated lubrication of said pin. A nice bench block has not been appreciated as a suitable substitute for a nice vise.

A small sample of the inventory. The short shaft items were amputated from standard mfg. parallel punches and then hardened / tempered to suit. The tapered pins are really the work horse for me, just moving any pin a few millimeters to follow on with a parallel punch, successful removal usually followed.

View attachment 1198074







View attachment 1198070View attachment 1198071View attachment 1198072View attachment 1198073

I'm not unlike you. I tend to type on into way too much detail, so my post is actually carefully shortened to something that people might be able to read in a minute or so as opposed to an hour, haha!

I do not have a lathe or access to one, but I have 30 years of tools and makeshift tools filling up both my cellar and my garage. That includes at least some tools of my late father and late grandfather. Despite everything that I have tried to date, I have not been successful at getting that darn retention pin out. This evening I read that this is not uncommon for the older Tomcats with others describing my exact problem years before me.

I am hoping that someone can direct me to the right pin attachments for the starter punch that a couple people wrote about above. I may search Starrett's website tomorrow, check Grainger Supply, places like that.

Or I could just stop by your house and borrow something of yours, haha!

Thanks for the tips. I will take a look around my things for some tapered tip punches. The hole is so small, a hair over 1mm, that I did not even consider it before now. But it could be an option to just start pushing it out and allow some serious penetrating oil to help with the rest of the job.

 

[a5werkes]

I may search Starrett's website tomorrow,

Starretts will not have what you need. The smallest parallel they have is 1/16" and it will bend in the middle.

The Rennsteig are nice as you can control / support the length of small diameter pins as needed.

The small solid extractor retaining pins on S&W M&P', when they first came out, were legendary regarding how hard
they were to remove with usual measures.

 

[TitanicTortilini]

You can get hardened 1mm punches as a 'watch band pin remover', nice ones individually, less nice ones in a kit, usually with a bunch of said watch band pins you might not ever need.

 

[Radom Guy]

You can get hardened 1mm punches as a 'watch band pin remover', nice ones individually, less nice ones in a kit, usually with a bunch of said watch band pins you might not ever need.

Thank you

 

[Radom Guy]

Starretts will not have what you need. The smallest parallel they have is 1/16" and it will bend in the middle.

The Rennsteig are nice as you can control / support the length of small diameter pins as needed.

The small solid extractor retaining pins on S&W M&P', when they first came out, were legendary regarding how hard
they were to remove with usual measures.

View attachment 1198091View attachment 1198092View attachment 1198094View attachment 1198095View attachment 1198096View attachment 1198097View attachment 1198098View attachment 1198099

Thank you i will look for that brand

 

[a5werkes]

Ejector pins would probably work, modify them as needed.
Brownells short starter pins are essentially ejector style pins being held by the retainer tip.

 

[a5werkes]

Another alternative for small hardened starter punches.
I have used undersized imperial / metric dowel pins held in roll pin starter punches that work pretty well for small pin removal.
They vary in length so the shortest one can be started, then as the pin is moving, switch to slightly longer one etc. until it is completely expelled from its aperture.

 

[Mauser fan]

I have an old Beretta Tomcat (manufactured in 1997, I bought it used). The firing pin is broken. The retainer pin in the slide that holds it in place is approximately 1mm diameter (approximately 0.040"). I do not have a 1mm punch. I have tried thin drill bits, grinding down the diameter of a 1/32" punch, then heating the respective pins/drill bit to red hot over a flame and dropping them in salt water to harden them. They still break or bend, regardless of how hard I tap them down (too light does not move the retainer pin obviously). I would gladly buy a tempered 1mm punch individually or in a set if I knew that what I was buying would work.

One other thing I actually tried was taking a brand new Beretta replacement retainer pin and pushing the existing pin with it. The brand new retainer pin started bending almost immediately, so I did not continue that route.

I tried heating the slide where the retainer pin is with a propane torch, but I did not get the slide and retainer pin red hot, as I am concerned about the slide metal and its finish becoming damaged. Perhaps I do not need to worry about that, I do not know. The Tomcat being an open top slide microcompact gun is very thin for about half the length of it. I even get nervous putting it in a vise, but I have rubber type vise jaw protectors on the vise jaws. Putting it in a vise is a minor issue that I can resolve, though.

Any tips to do this successfully on my own? The nearest gunsmiths that I know are about a half hour drive out of my way, and time is extremely tight. Plus, I would like to do it myself anyway, as you all understand.

This whole thing is pretty maddening, to feel beaten by something so tiny!!

It may take me a little time to reply to folks or give your comments a thumbs up, but I will definitely be reading them.

Thanks in advance.

I have more questions for you than answers. Before I get to the questions. Take photo of what you are dealing with so we can all see the issue vicariously through the picture. As of now being keyboard commandos were just throwing spit wads through a straw to try and help you fix what is broken.

Did you buy this gun used and broken with the idea of making it useful again? If so you have taken on a mans project for sure. Small pin and screw removal is the bane of a gunsmiths world.

Why are you trying to re-harden punches that you have ground down and removed the case hardening from? Simply quenching them after removing the case hardening doesn't case harden the steel again. You have add carbon back to the steel for that to happen. Besides punches are designed to bend and break before your work does.

The problem with the broken firing pin is a common issue to that model and if memory serves me correctly it was a manufacture's re-call. Furthermore if I am correct the pin that you are trying to remove is a tapered pin so it will only be removed from one side and not the other. Or the side of the slide that you are trying drive the pin through has been peened over to prevent the pin from falling out during operation. Much like a military crimp on a primer pocket.

Jeremy

 

[Radom Guy]

I have more questions for you than answers. Before I get to the questions. Take photo of what you are dealing with so we can all see the issue vicariously through the picture. As of now being keyboard commandos were just throwing spit wads through a straw to try and help you fix what is broken.

Did you buy this gun used and broken with the idea of making it useful again? If so you have taken on a mans project for sure. Small pin and screw removal is the bane of a gunsmiths world.

Why are you trying to re-harden punches that you have ground down and removed the case hardening from? Simply quenching them after removing the case hardening doesn't case harden the steel again. You have add carbon back to the steel for that to happen. Besides punches are designed to bend and break before your work does.

The problem with the broken firing pin is a common issue to that model and if memory serves me correctly it was a manufacture's re-call. Furthermore if I am correct the pin that you are trying to remove is a tapered pin so it will only be removed from one side and not the other. Or the side of the slide that you are trying drive the pin through has been peened over to prevent the pin from falling out during operation. Much like a military crimp on a primer pocket.

Jeremy

The retention pin actually has a boss on it so there is no way to try to push it the wrong direction (unless someone were really really really bad with mechanical operations).

I tried hardening the punch because it was a cheap purchase that bent no matter what. I had nothing to lose. The other things that I hardened were random drill bits, thin nails, things like that.

I bought the gun used but it looked unfired. Not many rounds through it anyway. I shot around 500 rounds through it. The firing pin broke when I was dry firing it with my own dummy rounds, where the primer pocket was filled with hot glue having reached ambient temperature.

I did not include all those details because typically when I do include a lot of detail, people get sidetracked genuinely trying to help, but so many questions that it does not really get me any closer to solving the issue.

The bossed end certainly could have been peened in by Beretta. Would you have a suggestion to "un-peen" it? Honest question, because I do not know. I would not want to try to "sand" it down with my little diamond tipped tiny files (I can't remember the proper term for them) as it would definitely damage the slide around the pin hole. But perhaps that's the only way to do it?

Here's a picture of the interior/bottom of the slide. Let me know if a picture of the top would be helpful to try to determine if it is peened in.

Thanks.

 

[Radom Guy]

Another alternative for small hardened starter punches.
I have used undersized imperial / metric dowel pins held in roll pin starter punches that work pretty well for small pin removal.
They vary in length so the shortest one can be started, then as the pin is moving, switch to slightly longer one etc. until it is completely expelled from its aperture.

View attachment 1198323View attachment 1198324

I do have sets of metric roll pins , I'll think about that idea, thanks.

 

[Radom Guy]

Ejector pins would probably work, modify them as needed.
Brownells short starter pins are essentially ejector style pins being held by the retainer tip.

View attachment 1198295View attachment 1198297


View attachment 1198300

Thank you for your multiple replies.

I found the German made fancy punches for around $75 with shipping on Amazon. They look awesome. I will have to wait a couple weeks before I can budget that purchase in the though as I just bought three new shell plates for my Hornady progressive press. Not cheap, but well worth the price! (150 for three)

 

[Radom Guy]

Magnified view of top of slide where bossed end of retention pin is.

 

[Mauser fan]

Removing metal in such a critical area is always a challenge there is never an easy way to do it. The only way that I would even attempt it would be to use a carbide burr to remove just enough of what has been peened and then try to press it out. From the looks of what you have shown us it was probably pressed in and then peened to prevent the pin from falling out. Honestly you should probably contact Beretta. At least if they serviced it for you it would be under some sort of warranty then besides they would have tools and expertise also. It looks like the slide needs some stoning too.

Maybe one of our other members here has some better ideas that has more experience with Beretta's than I do will chime in here.

Jeremy

 

[a5werkes]

Photo helped!

I have some dome tipped Beretta pins (that Brownells also sell), different from their flat-end parallel pin punches.

The smallest Starrett nail setter is domed and would work as a starter punch on that domed pin. A small nail setter punch from Home Depot might be a good alternative starter.

 

[Radom Guy]

Photo helped!

I have some dome tipped Beretta pins (that Brownells also sell), different from their flat-end parallel pin punches.

The smallest Starrett nail setter is domed and would work as a starter punch on that domed pin. A small nail setter punch from Home Depot might be a good alternative starter.

View attachment 1198378View attachment 1198379View attachment 1198380

I actually read about the Beretta pins too. The reviews are pretty negative, so I am going to look into them a bit more and decide if I will buy them. And I have a nail setter punch out in my garage (hopefully!) that I have to look at and possibly try. Thanks for mentioning this!

 

[a5werkes]

Don't spend money on the Beretta pin sets.......they are too long for their small diameters........would still need to have a very short starter set of domed punches.

I did fabricate some small diameter cup-tipped punches with the Brownells starter punches as the host........idle mind is the Devil's bake shop!

 

[Radom Guy]

Don't spend money on the Beretta pin sets.......they are too long for their small diameters........would still need to have a very short starter set of domed punches.

I did fabricate some small diameter cup-tipped punches with the Brownells starter punches as the host........idle mind is the Devil's bake shop!

View attachment 1198388View attachment 1198389View attachment 1198390View attachment 1198391View attachment 1198392

Nicely done! Thanks for the input on the Beretta punches too. I imagine they are good for a lot of specific Beretta gun work, but with the Tomcat that I own, it is probably not a good match, as the retention pin is so dang stuck in there.