Berger 168 VLD .308 win loads

[Nature Boy]

Berger 168 VLD .308 win loads (update)

I've heard so many good things about these Bergers that I broke down and bought 100. I don't have their book so I thought I'd ask if any of you have a favorite load. I have the following powders on hand that fall in the 308 range: H4895, Varget, RL15, W748, BLC(2) and Benchmark. I have imr4064 too but I can't get it to meter well enough. I also have WLR, CCI and Fed210 primers.

Shooting these through a 24", 1:12 barrel.

 

[DamDoc]

why not use the 4064 and weigh each load? its only 100!

 

[gamestalker]

Not everyone weighs bottle neck charges on a scale, but I think it's safe to say that bottle necks are more often than not weighed on a beam scale. Using a powder measure for bottle necks is ok I suppose, but bottle neck loading is almost always aimed at improving accuracy, and to accomplish that, consistency in all aspects is a key factor. IMHO, using a powder measure for bottle neck is about the same as shooting factory ammunition. Of course, one would still benefit with using the most accurate oal, and using brass that's been fired from the rifle being reloaded for.

As far as time, once I get my rhythm going, I can charge 100 cases on a beam scale in under an hour, actually like 45 minutes.

GS

 

[Reloadron]

I agree with GS. When I was weighing my 308 Winchester charges I would use my Uniflow and throw a charge just below what my target was and use my trickler to get my charge dead on. Considering you are loading Berger VLD bullets my guess is you are paying some attention to detail with your brass anyway? If you can't throw consistent to within +/- 0.1 grain then I would go ahead, take the time and weigh 4064 charges. My primers would be CCI 200 or CCI 250. Then too I happen to like CCI and 4064.

Ron

 

[Nature Boy]

All good points. I may eventually single loading rifle rounds with hard to meter powders, if that's what it takes. As it is, my Dillon 650 powder drop seems to do fine with other powders.

Back to my question. Do any of you have a favorite loads for this bullet given what I have in inventory?

 

[Nature Boy]

Anyone? At $0.54/bullet I didn't want to be throwing darts at a dart board. Would much rather start with some knowledgable input

 

[Glockula]

I have nodes at 41 and 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 using Berger 168s. My rifle is most accurate with Bergers jammed into the lands with .080 being a close second. I do weigh every charge. I also weigh cases and projectiles when using Bergers. I have used Nosler and Win brass with CCI bench rest primers.

 

[Nature Boy]

Thanks Glockula!

I have some Win brass

 

[Poper]

Anyone? At $0.54/bullet I didn't want to be throwing darts at a dart board. Would much rather start with some knowledgable input

Of course, as you know, all rifles are at least a little different. At one time I had 5 different .308's and all had a different preference. Some more than others.
My Remington 600 did not like the Bergers as well as it did Sierras. Go figure.
But then my old Remington 788 preferred the Bergers set at .040" off the lands but then the cartridge wouldn't fit in the magazine. Because this was one of my primary hunting rigs, that was not acceptable and I settled for Honady 165 gr. InterLocks.
The Tikka shot the Berger 168's best of all of them and still within the length of the magazine.
The Browning Mountain TI shot the Bergers quite well, but not as well as the Tikka. But I never did find a load that would shoot 3 shot clover leafs with that one. I ended up selling it before I really wrung her out load wise.
Lastly, I have a Kimber 84M and I am just beginning load development but have to cure the light primer strikes, first. (The new firing pin spring from Wolff does not fit. But that is another story.)

Bottom line, all but the Kimber shot excellent groups with IMR 4064 in the 42.0 - 44.5 charge range. The Tikka actually liked the 168's with IMR 4350 just a little better.

I'm finally down to just two: The 788 and the 84M.

 

[joneb]

I've had good results with BL-C2 for 308 win. in a 22" 1:12 bolt action with 168-169gr Bullets. I have also had good results with the the same gun using 150gr bullets with Varget.

 

[Grumulkin]

I have nodes at 41 and 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 using Berger 168s. My rifle is most accurate with Bergers jammed into the lands with .080 being a close second. I do weigh every charge. I also weigh cases and projectiles when using Bergers. I have used Nosler and Win brass with CCI bench rest primers.

In my 308 Winchesters I've never found a better powder than IMR 4064 for 165/168 grain bullets and the powder weight I use is within the range you mention. I also use match primers though of the Federal variety.

I haven't found the need to change powder charge when using different bullets of the same weight.

One caution about weighing powder charges. I've weighed powder charges in most of the things I load for and had an RCBS scale I had used a lot over about 30 years. I did check it on occasion with a Lyman weight set and it was always dead on. In working up a load I was disatisfied with large extreme spreads. It turned out that the powder charges were varying by up to 2 or 3 grains. I think the moral of the story would be to check the scale more often; I'm going to go with every time I start a new reloading session.

 

[Glockula]

Good call on checking your scale Grumulkin. I am a little OCDand will weigh the first 5 or so charges on both my Lee beam scale and my Frankford arsenal electronic to make sure they are saying the same thing. I will randomly check the scales against each other during the loading session. I am a big fan of consistent ammo

 

[Nature Boy]

About to load some. Checked scale and it's dead on. Thanks for the reminder

 

[Nature Boy]

I made some loads with 3 168g bullets. The Berger VLDs bottom left, SMKs top left and AMAXs on the right. All three with 39.5g of H4895, Fed cases and Fed 210 primers. The two on the left were .020" off the lands, the AMAX was all the way to the lands (was trying to get them .020" as well but they ended up that way so I went with it). Chrono'd them all and average FPS was ~2550. Next loads will all be at the lands. 5 shot groups, 100 yards

 

[Reloadron]

The Berger VLDs top left, SMKs bottom left and AMAXs on the right.

The images show Berger bottom left and SMK top left? Guessing a little backwards.

As to how far back off the lands? One rifle I spent considerable time loading for this summer is a Remington 700 VSSF in 308 Winchester. The rifle was trued years ago and I think I have a Timney trigger in this rifle. Here is the interesting part. Like most Remington 700 rifles of the early 90s this rifle has one heck of a bullet jump, so much in fact that loading a 168 grain SMK if I set it on the lands the bullet is just about out of the case. I don't have the numbers but it was some serious bullet jump. I blamed my inability to get tight groups with this rifle on that and always said someday I would set the barrel back or just replace it.

This summer I began shooting that rifle again after close to 20 years. I started trying some loads I developed using AA2495. Matter of fact 41.0 grains of AA2495, CCI BR2 primers, WCC 08 once fired brass and 168 grain SMK bullets. My average velocity was 2554 FPS. Shooting 5 shot groups I was getting 0.5" groups at 100 yards with a few of about 0.4". Never thought that rifle could do that? My COL was a standard 2.8" with all my cases trimmed to 2.005". Ironically this loading was for my M1A which it shot well in but not great.

Years ago I really got into the whole bullet seating depth thing and bullet jump. I shoot with a bench rest crowd on a bench rest range. I watch some of these guys load 6 PPC on the range and chamber a powdered case and bullet and they close the bolt to seat the bullet. That is seriously "on the lands". Anyway, looking at what happened with this rifle and what the rifle did I fin'd myself questioning just how great the effect really is with seating depth or bullet distance off the lands? Like I mentioned the rifle was trued (receiver and barrel) and I remember lapping the bolt. I guess I just never looked hard enough for a good load.

Should be interesting to see where all of this takes you and best of luck with it. Keep posting what you get and how things progress.

Ron

 

[Nature Boy]

Thanks for the feedback Ron and history on your Rem 700. This is all a new journey for me so evey experience is a learning opportunity. The interesting thing about the AMAX is I've tried that exact load at 2.810 OAL and didn't group anywhere close to that. I'll also be interested to see how the others do and if I can duplicate these results with the AMAX.

 

[Nature Boy]

Made some more 168 AMAXs and 168 VLDs. Loaded them both to the lands. Bottom line: The AMAXs stayed consistently good and the VLDs tightened up. All 5 shot groups were ~.500 (AMAX on left, VLD on right)

 

[Nature Boy]

Here the chrono data:

168 AMAX, 39.5 H4895, Fed case, Fed 210 primer, AOL 2.891 (touching lands)
H- 2588
L- 2549
A- 2570
ES- 39
SD- 19

168 VLD, 39.5g H4895, Fed case, Fed 210 primer, AOL 2.932 (touching the lands)
H- 2564
L- 2487
A- 2533
ES- 77
SD- 25

 

[Nature Boy]

Also shot some at 200. The VLDs had the better of the 2 groups. My plan today is to load a bunch of AMAXs and work at 200 to see if I can improve my skills. I think I've established at this point it's all on me. Can't blame the rifle or ammo.

 

[Reloadron]

That's what I like, when things reallt come together and the groups start to really tighten up. Pretty sweet when that happens, nice work.

Ron

 

[kris6600]

Also. I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but VLD's are very sensitive to seating depth. My berger book has their method for establishing the best depth for your rifle. I also have their load data. If you're still in need of any info let me know.

 

[Nature Boy]

Thanks Ron, and thanks Kris.

I may ask for some data Kris. At this point, if I get really good consistacy out of the AMAX at $0.26 ea vs $0.54 ea for the Bergers, well, you get the idea.

 

[climbnjump]

Also. I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but VLD's are very sensitive to seating depth. My berger book has their method for establishing the best depth for your rifle.

The Berger recommended method of determining the most accurate COAL for the VLD bullets can also be found here:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

While seating these into or at the lands was once considered to be the only way to get best accuracy, if is now recognized that sometimes jumping them works as well or even better. It all depends on the rifle and the load you have chosen.

In my 7mmRM with the powder and load that I've chosen, the 168 gr VLDs work best .015 off the lands.

 

[Nature Boy]

Well, I guess I've turned my Berger VLD thread into a Hornady AMAX thread. Shot some more of of the above recipe at 200 yards and after some scope adjustments was able to put this 5 shot string together

 

[kris6600]

Congrats on the group. Sub moa is nothing to shake a stick at. If you ever find yourself wanting that data feel free to ask. VLD's true potential can be completely missed if you don't tinker with the coal. But if you're happy with the amax's at half the price there's no sense in using up half a box or more of the VLD's just to find your pet load. Good shooting! Keep it up.