lysander wrote:
Goetz may have started out the passive defender in the subway car...but he became the aggressor. That, and the fact that he was on record as previously having made racist comments, contributed heavily to his civil liability.
It is fundamental that the use of force in self defense must be proportional. Once Goetz repelled the impending assault with the first round of gunfire, the incident was over. He was no longer under threat of deadly force from the would be aggressors.
However, Goetz became an aggressor when he opened his mouth, said "Have another" and attempted to shoot a wounded man. He made this statement and went after the wounded man after surveying the situation in the car. Meaning he had the time to develop the situational awareness to stand down and wait for authorities.
Yes...he pulled the trigger on an empty gun when he walked up to the wounded guy..but his words evidenced intent and he made the attempt. That as probably enough to put him on the hook (insofar as the civil trial was concerned).
Bernie's trial testimony and statements to the police were chock full of stupidity.
Oh true-- without a doubt. I make no effort to defend Geotz at all.
The quote you took from me was not a defense of Geotz-- it was a condemnation of the persons that he shot.
In our society, we have a tendency to judge a situation by the subsequent events rather than the originating circumstances.
It is the equivalent of starting a book and then reading the last chapter before you finish it.
No matter how its sliced, no matter how good or bad Geotz was, it doesn't change the fact that the originated circumstances was that he was passive and those that he shot made a decision to become aggressors. In effect, THEY originated the transgression and demonstrated a lack of morality and ethics prior to any action of Geotz.
While Geotz may have had some demons inside to deal with, those guys would not have been exposed to them if they hadn't knocked on the door.
I will not let Geotz' attitudes or actions gloss over their own responsibility and complicity in creating their own deaths.
And I'll not shed a tear for them. I frankly think society is a little better place without them in it.
But my condemnation of them does not create the condition of my affinity for Geotz. I can dislike them without liking him.
As I see it, Jeffrey Dalmer got sent to prison and someone murdered him in prison. The world is a better place without Jeffrey Dalmer breathing air, but I suspect that the guy who killed him was no Saint himself.
Sometimes, really screwed up people kill very screwed up people and you just have to stand there and watch.
-- John
