Blue68f100
Member
Yes, but using a very hot burning powder can make leading worst. Most lead loads use a powder that runs fairly cool, so to speak.
Berry's hard cast lead for 45 Colt
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Yes, but using a very hot burning powder can make leading worst. Most lead loads use a powder that runs fairly cool, so to speak.
RealGun
Member
Been reviewing some 45 Colt - Ruger Only material and encountered a highlighted statement that bevel-based bullets cannot be pushed hard, no matter the hardness. My current batch of lead 45 Colt is RNFP 250 gr Xtreme, which has only a slight bevel, which I appreciate as facilitating bullet insertion. Next up on the Tier III load though is the Cast Performance 265 gr gas check RNFP.
Are you sure that doesn't relate only to bare lead bullets?
Bullets need to fit the throat, which must be slightly over groove diameter, if not they will lead. There are more problems with too hard an alloy than too soft. If the bullet is undersized for the throats, or the bullet fits the throat but the groove diameter is larger, you will get gas cutting and leading from it. Throats must be around .001 over groove diameter, and bullets must fit the throat. A nice tight slip fit is best. Softer bullets will bump up (Within reason) and fill the throats, stopping gas cutting. Hard bullets will not bump up id undersized for the throats and you will get gas cutting. Undersized throats will keep the bullet under groove diameter and you will get gas cutting. You have to push a 12 BHN bullet pretty hard before it skids. A slower powder is more forgiving there than a fast powder which slaps it harder at the start.
Very little to do with the OPs question, but that's where the conversation went.
Very little to do with the OPs question, but that's where the conversation went.
RealGun
Member
Sometimes the premise generates more discussion than the answer to the question posed. A hardness of 20 surely raised some eyebrows, and here we are.Bullets need to fit the throat, which must be slightly over groove diameter, if not they will lead. There are more problems with too hard an alloy than too soft. If the bullet is undersized for the throats, or the bullet fits the throat but the groove diameter is larger, you will get gas cutting and leading from it. Throats must be around .001 over groove diameter, and bullets must fit the throat. A nice tight slip fit is best. Softer bullets will bump up (Within reason) and fill the throats, stopping gas cutting. Hard bullets will not bump up id undersized for the throats and you will get gas cutting. Undersized throats will keep the bullet under groove diameter and you will get gas cutting. You have to push a 12 BHN bullet pretty hard before it skids. A slower powder is more forgiving there than a fast powder which slaps it harder at the start.
Very little to do with the OPs question, but that's where the conversation went.
I am reading that fit is the answer, even custom tailoring bullets to the gun, while others propose just throwing a blob of oversized lead at a smaller hole, and all will be well. I feel like I am chasing shadows, because nothing works except shooting a couple chaser rounds of jacketed bullets after shooting any kind of lead. I have had throats enlarged, forcing cones recut, have press fitted bullets into throats as a check. In the case of the Smith 625JM I even bought a 625PC in hopes the cut rifling difference would be the answer. Those guns are a cleaning nightmare with lead 45s (4.6 Bullseye, 200 SWC). Note that throats were opened to .4525 on both guns. The forcing cone was recut to center on the 625PC.
Just checked the Blackhawk 45 convertible, and its Colt throats are .454. Might have to try larger bullets after all.
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What BHN/size/velocity are leading your 625JM?
Oh, and Tightgroup is a high energy (high nitro content), hot powder which doesn't play well with lead sometimes. Suggest WST in its place. What other fast powders do you have?
Oh, and Tightgroup is a high energy (high nitro content), hot powder which doesn't play well with lead sometimes. Suggest WST in its place. What other fast powders do you have?
Dog Soldier
member
It is not a "Work Around" it is simply a proper casting method.When casting bullets you first determine your bore then match your bullet over sized. Commercial cast bullet will work. But we cast to achieve a more perfect match. It is about accuracy and balanced load. Cast bullets are rated by breech pressures not velocities.
midland man
Member
I use a old lyman single cavity mold part# 454 190 and I cast wheelweight bullets with this mold then I size them to .457dia with the lee sizer but before I run them thru the sizer I lube them with lee alox then let dry by directions then run them thru the lee sizer then I relube them with the lee alox and let dry before loading! I load this for my 45 colt revolvers and rifles I have and I use 6.8gr greendot with this oversize bullet and I get excellent accuracy plus super clean bores so I really love this load and it performs very well!!
RealGun
Member
I would have to call out Oregon Trail on their no leading warranty on both 45 ACP and 45 Colt. The bullets are decidedly bevel-based. I am ordering new bullets in 454 and sticking to Missouri coated Br12 and Meister cast for the 200 gr SWC 45 ACP.
I have at least a sample pound of about any powder you could mention except the VV line. I didn't mention using Titegroup and would rather use something with more volume in the larger caliber cases.
addendum:
Found that Lucky13 had the .454 Plain base that I wanted. It is RNFP 250 gr uncoated.
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Both must be taken into consideration, but pressure is more important. As long as the bullet can hold up to the initial push and hold the rifling at the velocity driven you're good.
Dog Soldier
member
The breech pressure is the mother of velocity. It must be determined how much pressure your casting can sustain and for how long. A bullet cast may work fine in a 5" handgun barrel. That bullets base may fail at 18 inches in a carbine barrel. The heat and pressure overcomes the alloy. Gas cutting occurs and leading. The Lyman Cast Bullet book is a wise investment.
RealGun
Member
That is an axiom I find curious, since only velocity is measurable as far as I know. Frankly I would rather "rate" cast bullets as how trouble free they will be in saving me money. I know you are trying to be helpful. I'm just sayin'.It is not a "Work Around" it is simply a proper casting method.When casting bullets you first determine your bore then match your bullet over sized. Commercial cast bullet will work. But we cast to achieve a more perfect match. It is about accuracy and balanced load. Cast bullets are rated by breech pressures not velocities.
I disagree. Gas cutting happens from bullets not sealing the bore. If they survive the initial start with no gas cutting because they have sealed the bore from fit and bumping up under pressure, they will hold for the entire length of the barrel. If pushed too hard (fast) for the alloy to hold the rifling it will break the seal and cause gas cutting as well. This happens right away as well. If the bullets lead towards the end of the barrel the lube failed, either from being unsuited for the task or from not enough lube. This can happen in a long barrel where the same load won't fail in a short barrel. Plenty of lube/good enough lube for the short tube, but not up to the task of a long one.
RealGun
Member
I have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and have equipment and supplies for casting, but that is only for the event in which I cannot buy bullets. All of my lead bullets are purchased, and I am subject to whatever is offered. The expertise I need is what to buy, not what to cast. Understanding gleaned from this thread resulted in my order today of .454 plain base bullets for my gun with .454 throats.The breech pressure is the mother of velocity. It must be determined how much pressure your casting can sustain and for how long. A bullet cast may work fine in a 5" handgun barrel. That bullets base may fail at 18 inches in a carbine barrel. The heat and pressure overcomes the alloy. Gas cutting occurs and leading. The Lyman Cast Bullet book is a wise investment.
Dog Soldier
member
Real Gun, That sounds good. Maybe you should try casting. It is also a very addictive hobby. Good luck and all the best.
Dog Soldier
member
Walk Along, I wish that were the case. But the disgusting facts do not bear out the fact that failure occurs from the initial dynamic gas. The choice of propellants are important in this issue.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handguns/revolvers/handgun-cartridges-in-rifle-barrels/
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handguns/revolvers/handgun-cartridges-in-rifle-barrels/
Dog Soldier
member
Thanks fellows for the discussion regarding cast bullets.
I don't see where that article disagrees with me, or backs up what you posted. If you believe it does, we can just disagree.
Dog Soldier
member
Walk Along fair enough. Back in day of Black Powder barrel length did not effect the structure of the bullet. But, progressive burning powders continue to increase the pressures on the base of the bullet. The longer elapsed time in the barrel can simply cause the base to melt and allow gas cutting. That is why an other wise accurate handgun load fails in a rifle.
Back in day of Black Powder barrel length did not effect the structure of the bullet. But, progressive burning powders continue to increase the pressures on the base of the bullet. The longer elapsed time in the barrel can simply cause the base to melt and allow gas cutting. That is why an other wise accurate handgun load fails in a rifle.Then we'll just have to disagree. When you get leading towards the end of the barrel it is a lube problem.
Dog Soldier
member
OK, Maybe we can agree on a good lead remover. Thanks for your ideas.
Dog Soldier
member
Walk Along, did you ever consider that muzzle leading is also due to gas cutting? The base is failing allowing the gas to bypass the bullet. Bullet lube is a marginal stop gap for leading. What do you think?
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm
RealGun
Member
Then there would be smoke, right?Then we'll just have to disagree. When you get leading towards the end of the barrel it is a lube problem.
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